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Thread: Gay Reparations

  1. #141
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And that's my fault? So again, why do I owe you money?
    It's society's fault.

    ---------- Post added at 02:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Irrelevant. You need to show a society that ORIGINATED with no homophobia within it if you are to support that homophobia is not natural.
    I have, as supported. Society's where not only is there no homophobia (as a prevailing social attitude) but the actual reverse with homosexuals being highly regarded. If it were a natural consequence there'd be none.

    ---------- Post added at 02:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    When you support this, I'll address it.
    I have.

    ---------- Post added at 02:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But then they aren't persecuting Jerry because he's gay but because there's suspicion that he poisoned the well.

    But the pertinent question is why was the homophobe who accused Jerry Homophobic? If it occurred naturally then his homophobia is natural.

    And while I have no burden to support the opposite conclusion, I can state why I think homophobia is natural. Homophobia is just and offshoot of xenophobia - fear of that which is different and I think xenophobia is very natural, especially amongst primitive people (where all societies start). If someone is different in some way, it's not unnatural to fear them for that difference. And when it comes to sexually different, I could see the fear being even more intense. And in tribal times, xenophobia is a valid survival mechanism because people from other tribes are more unpredictable in their reaction to you than people from your own tribe and therefore more dangerous.
    Thank you! It is fear that is a natural condition. Can we move on now?

    ---------- Post added at 02:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    If one takes evolution as the driving force ut seems like thwre would be an inherent natural bias against himosexuality that would naturally show up in any culture that it produces. Not as a logical necissity but at least as a natural trend.
    Further it seems that the natural sexual prejudice of seeking a heterosexual relatuonship for procreation lays a very natural frame work inherent to any such system for at least SOME measure of social bias against homosexuality in general. If only as an ignired minority. Such that social events would naturally be tended to be framed in a heterosexual sense.
    What "natural bias"?

    To the second part I don't doubt that. For example my support mentions the Bible and the Israellites and it could be argued that a society might "frown" upon those that don't procreate to expand the population. Especially one in a precarious position. But then why would they care about someone who did marry, procreate, and then did whatever with the handsome young men at the baths? (The real meaning for the oft misinterpreted Leviticus I believe). There has to be another reason, the real reason. Which I would argue is to set them apart from other cultures Mediterranean cultures around them.

  2. #142
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    The natural bias of wanting the opposite sex. On evolution a bias programmed in by natural selection. Becayse basic mating habits drive a lor of societal interactions that creats a very natural bias against homosexuality in favor of typical hetro. Like why dances are developed wit boy giel intwraction on mind. Like the reasob ladies night at the bars exists.
    It is an inherent bias of common reproduction forces.

    It is really very basic and a natural effect of evolved sexuality. It is that force that drives amd develops culture... Not the other way around. Culture amd society didnt decide to hate gays and exclude them from society when ladies night was invented. It was a reflection of basicic.. You know what dudes like.. Women. Lets get women in this joint and the duds will pay througj the nose.
    To serve man.

  3. #143
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    It's society's fault.
    ALL of society to such an extent that society owes all gays, including you, money? Please support.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I have, as supported. Society's where not only is there no homophobia (as a prevailing social attitude) but the actual reverse with homosexuals being highly regarded. If it were a natural consequence there'd be none.
    No, not as in a "prevailing social attitude". As in "when the society originated, there was no one who was homophobic".

    Quit dodging this point, please.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I have.
    Claims of support is not support. I will consider this claim retracted until you provide support


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Thank you! It is fear that is a natural condition. Can we move on now?
    Fear does not exist without being a fear of something. And I believe that it's natural for heterosexuals to fear homosexuals (since it's just a subset of Xenophobia which is quite natural).

    So I'd be happy to move on from here.

  4. #144
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Fear does not exist without being a fear of something. And I believe that it's natural for heterosexuals to fear homosexuals (since it's just a subset of Xenophobia which is quite natural).
    Your belief is irrelevant. I've shown support of cultures where homosexuals are not only feared they are admired and hold high status.

    ---------- Post added at 12:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, not as in a "prevailing social attitude". As in "when the society originated, there was no one who was homophobic".

    Quit dodging this point, please.
    I have no such support. Fortunately it is irrelevant.

    ---------- Post added at 12:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    ALL of society to such an extent that society owes all gays, including you, money? Please support.
    That society takes responsibility for things? Sure, WIC is a good example.

    ---------- Post added at 01:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:43 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The natural bias of wanting the opposite sex. On evolution a bias programmed in by natural selection. Becayse basic mating habits drive a lor of societal interactions that creats a very natural bias against homosexuality in favor of typical hetro. Like why dances are developed wit boy giel intwraction on mind. Like the reasob ladies night at the bars exists.
    It is an inherent bias of common reproduction forces.

    It is really very basic and a natural effect of evolved sexuality. It is that force that drives amd develops culture... Not the other way around. Culture amd society didnt decide to hate gays and exclude them from society when ladies night was invented. It was a reflection of basicic.. You know what dudes like.. Women. Lets get women in this joint and the duds will pay througj the nose.
    Are you saying gay bars don't make money? I've got news for you. In fact, if it wasn't the stigma and sanctions against them they'd be more popular than straight bars. They certainly are more fun. Consider the notion of a "stright pride" parade...I can't think of anything more lame and boring. Gay bars were (and still are to some extent) very popular with straight girls looking to have fun and not be bothered by guys grabbing all over them. In fact, in the modern era, this became so prevalent that even gay bars had "ladies night" where other nights girls were excluded so gays could be gay. I go to a place called Jaques which has a drag queen review and there's nothing but girls there most of which are straighter than straight as it is an incredibly popular stop for bridal showers.

    I don't think that just because a certain type of person is the majority a society said society only produces institutions that reflect their behavior. There is an alluring effect of the different, no?

  5. #145
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by cowboy
    Are you saying gay bars don't make money?
    Of course not, and that is ridiculous. Not sure you are listening to what I'm saying really.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    In fact, if it wasn't the stigma and sanctions against them they'd be more popular than straight bars. They certainly are more fun. Consider the notion of a "stright pride" parade...I can't think of anything more lame and boring.
    Hello, I'm from Louisiana, I would like to introduce you to MardiGras. Your perception is clearly biased, because from a locals POV around here. gay parades are really just cheap imitations of what a prade should be like.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Gay bars were (and still are to some extent) very popular with straight girls looking to have fun and not be bothered by guys grabbing all over them. In fact, in the modern era, this became so prevalent that even gay bars had "ladies night" where other nights girls were excluded so gays could be gay. I go to a place called Jaques which has a drag queen review and there's nothing but girls there most of which are straighter than straight as it is an incredibly popular stop for bridal showers.
    Your not really countering my general point.
    My point is that such things are sexuality centered and driven(AT LEAST HISTORICALLY). The exceptions only prove the rule. What it evolves into doesn't disprove that.
    Peoples perception of others are HEAVILY sexuality driven. And thus so is social acceptance.
    That is why pretty girls are so popular.

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    I don't think that just because a certain type of person is the majority a society said society only produces institutions that reflect their behavior. There is an alluring effect of the different, no?
    Once a society has reached a large level.. yes.
    The smaller the society the less true that is.
    To serve man.

  6. #146
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Your belief is irrelevant. I've shown support of cultures where homosexuals are not only feared they are admired and hold high status.
    Well, I believe that homophobia is natural and that there has never been a society that originated without homophobia. Until you support that this assumption of mine is incorrect, I do not accept your argument that homophobia is not natural.

    Showing that societies existed where the social norm was to be generally gay-accepting does not support this.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That society takes responsibility for things? Sure, WIC is a good example.
    No, that every person within a society should be held legally responsible for whatever members of the society does. This issue has been settled already. I don't owe the victims of a crime because the money used to buy the gun was taken from me.

    You seem to just be repeating arguments that have already been settled.

  7. #147
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Hello, I'm from Louisiana, I would like to introduce you to MardiGras. Your perception is clearly biased, because from a locals POV around here. gay parades are really just cheap imitations of what a prade should be like.
    Marid Gras is not a straight pride parade.

    ---------- Post added at 12:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Well, I believe that homophobia is natural and that there has never been a society that originated without homophobia. Until you support that this assumption of mine is incorrect, I do not accept your argument that homophobia is not natural.

    Showing that societies existed where the social norm was to be generally gay-accepting does not support this.
    Of course it does since even if said society originated with homophobia it was replaced, meaning it is not required to be homophobic, therefore not a natural condition.

    ---------- Post added at 12:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    No, that every person within a society should be held legally responsible for whatever members of the society does. This issue has been settled already. I don't owe the victims of a crime because the money used to buy the gun was taken from me.

    You seem to just be repeating arguments that have already been settled.
    I don't have to show that you are responsible for "whatever" members of the society does. Just the persecution. Which I've done.

  8. #148
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Of course it does since even if said society originated with homophobia it was replaced, meaning it is not required to be homophobic, therefore not a natural condition.
    But then I don't accept the premise that it must be required to be a natural condition. We aren't required to have certain diseases (and have eriadicated a few) but diseases are natural.

  9. #149
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Your not really countering my general point.
    My point is that such things are sexuality centered and driven(AT LEAST HISTORICALLY). The exceptions only prove the rule. What it evolves into doesn't disprove that.
    Peoples perception of others are HEAVILY sexuality driven. And thus so is social acceptance.
    That is why pretty girls are so popular.
    Ok, but you're not suggesting that pretty always means the same thing?

    ---------- Post added at 12:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But then I don't accept the premise that it must be required to be a natural condition. We aren't required to have certain diseases (and have eriadicated a few) but diseases are natural.
    But fear is and we aren't required to have that either.

  10. #150
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    But fear is and we aren't required to have that either.
    But that doesn’t affect my argument. I have supported that not being required does not mean that something isn’t natural. Therefore, it does not follow that homophobia isn’t natural just because it isn’t required.
    Last edited by mican333; August 15th, 2019 at 11:38 AM.

  11. #151
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But that doesn’t affect my argument. I have supported that not being required does not mean that something isn’t natural. Therefore, it does not follow that homophobia isn’t natural just because it isn’t required.
    And it was rebutted in that a disease is a biological construct, not a social one. Apples and oranges.

  12. #152
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    @cowboy.. No of course not. Its very simple let ne know if ypu catch it.
    1 sexuality is a major driver in the history of any societies development.

    2 sexuality of most people are inherently biases agains homosexuality and all other sexualities in favor of hetrosexxuality

    3 this is a natural bias at work in societal development.
    4 thus socities are not blank slates with no inherent biases against homosexuality.

    Note just because societies can and have mature and grow past this pressure doesnt mean that it diesnt exist.



    It is really very obvious and isnt controvercial in the least.
    To serve man.

  13. #153
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    And it was rebutted in that a disease is a biological construct, not a social one. Apples and oranges.
    Which is utterly irrelevant to my argument. I supported that things that aren't necessary can be natural. Therefore the argument that homophobia is not natural because it's not necessary is not correct.
    Last edited by mican333; August 15th, 2019 at 02:39 PM.

  14. #154
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    @cowboy.. No of course not. Its very simple let ne know if ypu catch it.
    1 sexuality is a major driver in the history of any societies development.

    2 sexuality of most people are inherently biases agains homosexuality and all other sexualities in favor of hetrosexxuality

    3 this is a natural bias at work in societal development.
    4 thus socities are not blank slates with no inherent biases against homosexuality.

    Note just because societies can and have mature and grow past this pressure doesnt mean that it diesnt exist.



    It is really very obvious and isnt controvercial in the least.
    I actually tentatively agree with that in that reproduction is a natural factor. The only mistake I don't want us to make is that we're not talking about monogamous relationships exclusively.

    ---------- Post added at 10:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Which is utterly irrelevant to my argument. I supported that things that aren't necessary can be natural. Therefore the argument that homophobia is not natural because it's not necessary is not correct.
    An apples and oranges argument.

  15. #155
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    An apples and oranges argument.
    Call it what you want. But I have supported that something being not necessary does not mean that it’s not natural.

  16. #156
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    I actually tentatively agree with that in that reproduction is a natural factor. The only mistake I don't want us to make is that we're not talking about monogamous relationships exclusively.
    Monogamy isn't an issue.

    So going forward in the thead, your tentatively agreeing that there are natural pressures that act in forming societies that are prejudiced against homosexuality?
    Because that is the point you are agreeing to here.
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  17. #157
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Monogamy isn't an issue.

    So going forward in the thead, your tentatively agreeing that there are natural pressures that act in forming societies that are prejudiced against homosexuality?
    Because that is the point you are agreeing to here.
    I'm not sure. That's why I said tentatively. What natural pressures? To reproduce?

    ---------- Post added at 11:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Call it what you want. But I have supported that something being not necessary does not mean that it’s not natural.
    Not in a social construct.

  18. #158
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Not in a social construct.
    Your argument was that homophobia is not natural because it's not necessary. I've rebutted that argument so it doesn't stand.
    Last edited by mican333; August 16th, 2019 at 07:25 AM.

  19. #159
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Yes to reproduce basically. Which is evolutionarily biased against homosexuality.
    To serve man.

  20. #160
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Your argument was that homophobia is not natural because it's not necessary. I've rebutted that argument so it doesn't stand.
    Maybe in a biological setting. Maybe.

    ---------- Post added at 12:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Yes to reproduce basically. Which is evolutionarily biased against homosexuality.
    Ok, I can agree to that somewhat regarding the actual physical act. Moreso before artificial insemination. But surrogates were a possibility (read your Bible) so, again, we're back to the sanctions against homosexual relationships as preventing that.

 

 
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