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Thread: Gay Reparations

  1. #1
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    Gay Reparations

    Can't wait to get my $$$


    "U.S. should emulate Trudeau apology for 'gay purge'

    by Malcolm Lazin, For Philly.com

    Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau formally apologized on Nov. 28 for the harm caused by the “gay purge” to their federal government employees.

    The purge was based on the theory that gays and lesbians were vulnerable to blackmail even though there was no documented case of a Canadian gay or lesbian blackmailed by the Soviet Union or any other country. From the late 1950s to 1992, tens of thousands of Canadian gay and lesbian federal employees were discharged or assigned menial jobs. After his apology, the government announced it will pay 110 million Canadian dollars, or $85 million, in reparations to compensate victims.

    The Canadian gay purge was encouraged by U.S. intelligence agencies. In April 1953, one of Dwight Eisenhower’s first acts was to sign Executive Order 10450, which prohibited the federal government from employing “sexual perverts” in any military or civilian job. The order comported with prevailing societal attitudes. Homosexual acts were criminalized. In 1952, homosexuality was listed as a sociopathic personality disturbance in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) of the American Psychiatric Association. Treatments included chemical castration, electric shock therapy, mental institutionalization, and lobotomies.

    In the nation’s capital, Police Lt. Roy Blick headed his department’s Pervert Elimination Squad with four men assigned to detect and arrest homosexuals. In early 1950, Blick opined to a congressional committee that “There are 3,750 perverts employed by government agencies.” The Office of Naval Intelligence reported that the number was 7,859. In response, the Senate set up a subcommittee. The New York Times reported “Pervert Inquiry Ordered.”

    The State Department, Civil Service Commission, intelligence agencies, and FBI collaborated in the purge. By November 1950, 500 federal employees in Washington and across the nation had been fired or forced to resign. By the mid-1950s tens of thousands of people lost their jobs, of which many had nothing to do with national security. The homosexual ban spilled over to defense and other federal government contractors. Private employers hired companies such as Fidelifacts to provide sexual orientation information on hires and current employees.


    Gay rights pioneer Frank Kameny led the counterattack. In July 1975, 22 years after Eisenhower’s executive order, the Civil Service Commission removed homosexuality as a bar to civilian federal government employment. Fifty-seven years later, President Barack Obama signed the repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. In fall 2011, gays and lesbians were allowed to serve openly in the military. Between WWII and the repeal, it is estimated that more than 100,000 gays and lesbians were dishonorably discharged or forced to leave military service.

    At the APA annual meeting in 1972, gay rights pioneers Frank Kameny and Barbara Gittings and psychiatrist John Fryer served on a homosexuality panel. Because he could lose his licensure if known as a homosexual, Fryer used the name Dr. H. Anonymous and hid his identity with a mask and voice modulator. Fryer’s testimony was galvanizing. The APA promptly established a study committee. At the 1973 annual meeting, homosexuality was removed from the DSM.

    Trudeau introduced legislation that would expunge “unjust convictions” of those charged criminalizing same-sex intimacy. Canada follows in the footsteps of the United Kingdom, which through its prime minister and queen, apologized, and expunged those convicted of homosexuality.

    From the 1950s to the Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell repeal in 2011, well over 150,000 American gays and lesbians were fired or forced to leave federal government employment. Hopefully, the United States will follow England’s and Canada’s lead in addressing the effects of governmental homophobia with apologies, honorable discharges, and pardons." (and $$$)


    I'd argue that we still have a ways to go since we have an obvious bigot like Franklin Graham still supporting the lost cause of the right. That reparations programs are necessary for eradicating what's left of these views from the public square. Including any so-called "protections" for the open practice of bigotry.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Using religion as an excuse for bigotry:

    "In Texas, you can be fired for being gay. You can be denied a home for being gay. You can be barred from adopting a child who needs a loving family because you're gay. Discrimination is an urgent issue in our state. Discrimination against Chick-fil-A is not." - Beto O'Rourke

    Texas Gov. Greg Abbott (R) held a made-for-TV ceremony Friday touting his signing of the so-called Save Chick-fil-A law.

    Abbott surrounded himself with associates and Chick-fil-A menu items and vowed to protect religious liberty in response to criticism citing the fast food chain’s owner's support for anti-gay groups and opposition to gay marriage.

    The law was sparked in response to the San Antonio City Council to block a Chick-fil-A location from opening in the local airport.

    “Discrimination is not tolerated in Texas. No business should be discriminated against simply because its owners pay to a church or the Salvation Army or any other religious organization,” Abbott said at the ceremonial signing. “No business should lose a government contract because of their religious beliefs. The ‘Save Chick-fil-A’ legislation that I’m about to sign is a victory for religious liberty in Texas.”

    Abbott officially signed the bill into law in June. It will take effect in September.

    Conservatives have rallied around Chick-fil-A since criticism began, with some citing the backlash as evidence that liberals seek to infringe on the rights of religious organizations.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'd argue that we still have a ways to go since we have an obvious bigot like Franklin Graham still supporting the lost cause of the right. That reparations programs are necessary for eradicating what's left of these views from the public square. Including any so-called "protections" for the open practice of bigotry.
    First off, people have a right to be bigoted so eradicating certain views is not a legitimate goal for government. And assuming the government did have the goal of eradicating bigoted views, the best course of action is to simply outlaw those views - legally punish those who express those views. Of course that's blatantly unconstitutional but nonetheless if we were going to eradicate such views, this is the best way to do it instead of reparations.

    And I do agree that gays who have been the victims of unjustified firings and such are entitled to compensation on a case-by-case basis by their employers (for wrongful termination as such), I don't see a good reason to give every gay person financial compensation.

    So you don't deserve any extra money just because you're gay. But if you have been discriminated against by someone in an unlawful manner that caused you economic hardship, you may have a case for suing that person.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    First off, people have a right to be bigoted so eradicating certain views is not a legitimate goal for government.
    Agreed.

    ---------- Post added at 04:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And assuming the government did have the goal of eradicating bigoted views, the best course of action is to simply outlaw those views - legally punish those who express those views.
    I'd somewhat agree. I'd say that not really outlaw per se but precedents should be set to discourage their expression as unacceptable. For example, an employer who has a habit of expressing bigoted views - even in a jocular way - could expect to have those statements brought up as evidence when they find themselves accused of infringng on someone's rights, say, by firing someone because they are gay.

    ---------- Post added at 05:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And I do agree that gays who have been the victims of unjustified firings and such are entitled to compensation on a case-by-case basis by their employers (for wrongful termination as such), I don't see a good reason to give every gay person financial compensation.
    I disagree. While I agree there should be remedies to individuals who were the direct victims of such heinous policies, the effect nonetheless reached the entire population. For example, I may never have been evicted from an apartment for being gay, but I never had my boyfriend over or engaged in various open activities with my partner for fear of being found out and sanctioned. I never got to fully enjoy and reap the rewards of the property I was renting to the same extent as someone not under such threat. I'd say I deserve compensation for that.

    "Gay Bashing" was a thing and it was wildly overlooked by authorities. Sometimes in a "boys will be boys" or some such delusions that they were actually helping the boy become more "manly" by toughening him up. Sometimes openly as an expression of "they deserved it" for their sin or to try and get someone out of the community or whatever. Persons who engaged in such behavior acted as proxies for authorities enforcing this bigotry and, again, it effected the entire population leading people to not be able to be who they are - acting and behaving differently and otherwise not being able to enjoy their natural life the way others could. For example, not coming out of the closet. Not starting a relationship or family or doing so in a restrained manner like having a "beard" wife. This is quantifiable as time and potential opportunities lost due to an oppressive, irrational, and discriminatory policy.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'd somewhat agree. I'd say that not really outlaw per se but precedents should be set to discourage their expression as unacceptable. For example, an employer who has a habit of expressing bigoted views - even in a jocular way - could expect to have those statements brought up as evidence when they find themselves accused of infringng on someone's rights, say, by firing someone because they are gay.
    But you spoke of a governmental goal of eradicating voicing anti-gay views. That is not an acceptable goal of government. But yes, there are times when such a view can and should be legally held against someone such as the situation you just outlined. But then the goal for doing that is to eliminate discrimination in the workplace, not eliminate undesirable views from being expressed.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I disagree. While I agree there should be remedies to individuals who were the direct victims of such heinous policies, the effect nonetheless reached the entire population. For example, I may never have been evicted from an apartment for being gay, but I never had my boyfriend over or engaged in various open activities with my partner for fear of being found out and sanctioned. I never got to fully enjoy and reap the rewards of the property I was renting to the same extent as someone not under such threat. I'd say I deserve compensation for that.
    Should a gay person who didn't have that issue (because they never felt they had to hide their boyfriend because they lived in a more enlightened area or they never had boyfriends to hide) likewise deserve compensation for that?






    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    "Gay Bashing" was a thing and it was wildly overlooked by authorities. Sometimes in a "boys will be boys" or some such delusions that they were actually helping the boy become more "manly" by toughening him up. Sometimes openly as an expression of "they deserved it" for their sin or to try and get someone out of the community or whatever. Persons who engaged in such behavior acted as proxies for authorities enforcing this bigotry and, again, it effected the entire population leading people to not be able to be who they are - acting and behaving differently and otherwise not being able to enjoy their natural life the way others could. For example, not coming out of the closet. Not starting a relationship or family or doing so in a restrained manner like having a "beard" wife. This is quantifiable as time and potential opportunities lost due to an oppressive, irrational, and discriminatory policy.
    But not directly due to any governmental policy or inaction. It's an unfortunate side-effect of societal discrimination.

    And I don't agree that one is owed money just because they were treated worse by society than others. Nerds were generally treated worse by society than cool people. So do nerds deserve compensation for the societal discrimination that they received?

    There needs to be an generally agreed-upon principle that is recognized by all for their to be a foundation for a reparations case. And the principle you seem to be forwarding is that if a group as a whole were treated unfairly compared to those who don't belong to that group, they deserve to be given more money than the other group. While you can make such a case, I don't see the principle as undeniably correct. I see if more as your opinion and while you are welcome to your opinion and I won't even say that your opinion is inherently wrong, it does not rise to making a strong case for reparations.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But you spoke of a governmental goal of eradicating voicing anti-gay views. That is not an acceptable goal of government. But yes, there are times when such a view can and should be legally held against someone such as the situation you just outlined. But then the goal for doing that is to eliminate discrimination in the workplace, not eliminate undesirable views from being expressed.
    Right, I'd say effectively erradicating and I did say from the public square - probably meant "sphere". For example, during the debates over same-sex marriage and as the situation developed wasn't it Rick Santorum that compared two men getting married to someone marrying a dog? As if they are comparable. That is a disgusting, bigoted suggestion that has no place in public discourse. At the very least they should be called out for it.

    ---------- Post added at 01:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Should a gay person who didn't have that issue (because they never felt they had to hide their boyfriend because they lived in a more enlightened area or they never had boyfriends to hide) likewise deserve compensation for that?
    That was just one example and falls under the umbrella of things that were actually placed into law through government and through policies in the private sector. I'd also add the social death experienced by individuals and other abuses inflicted by individuals acting on their own or through other types of organizations (such as the church). Beaten, threatened, harassed, I'm sure there are myriad different experiences for any number of people.

    ---------- Post added at 01:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    But not directly due to any governmental policy or inaction. It's an unfortunate side-effect of societal discrimination.
    There were plenty of policies and definitely inaction whether directly or indirectly related to those policies or not related at all is irrelevant. Am injustice has occurred against a group of people and there must be a remedy. If only to prevent it from happening again.

    ---------- Post added at 01:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    And I don't agree that one is owed money just because they were treated worse by society than others. Nerds were generally treated worse by society than cool people. So do nerds deserve compensation for the societal discrimination that they received?
    Being a nerd is not an immutable characteristic and is superficial. You can work at being less nerdy. Unless it is something that is unchangeable such as someone has crippling social anxiety or some other type of mental challenge.

    ---------- Post added at 01:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I don't see the principle as undeniably correct.
    Why?
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Right, I'd say effectively erradicating and I did say from the public square - probably meant "sphere". For example, during the debates over same-sex marriage and as the situation developed wasn't it Rick Santorum that compared two men getting married to someone marrying a dog? As if they are comparable. That is a disgusting, bigoted suggestion that has no place in public discourse. At the very least they should be called out for it.
    Reparations is a governmental policy and the government should not have the goal of removing a viewpoint from the public square.

    But of course people like you and I can, and should, call out things like that.

    But this doesn't have much to do with reparations.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That was just one example and falls under the umbrella of things that were actually placed into law through government and through policies in the private sector. I'd also add the social death experienced by individuals and other abuses inflicted by individuals acting on their own or through other types of organizations (such as the church). Beaten, threatened, harassed, I'm sure there are myriad different experiences for any number of people.
    But I don't see how reparations is a particularly good response to this.

    If someone beats up a gay person, the ideal correction is for that person to be legally punished for it. If law enforcement take too lax an attitude towards solving crimes against gays, then those particular officers or even the department should receive punishment and I would be fine with them getting sued and the gay victims getting compensated that way.

    But I don't see why every gay person, including those who never experienced that kind of abuse, are entitled to money.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    There were plenty of policies and definitely inaction whether directly or indirectly related to those policies or not related at all is irrelevant. Am injustice has occurred against a group of people and there must be a remedy. If only to prevent it from happening again.
    And changing the policies and punishing those who were inactive when they should have been active seems like the right response.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Being a nerd is not an immutable characteristic and is superficial. You can work at being less nerdy. Unless it is something that is unchangeable such as someone has crippling social anxiety or some other type of mental challenge.
    It doesn't change the fact that nerds are treated worse in our society than cool people. So clearly just suffering some level of lesser treatment than others is not a reason for compensation




    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Why?
    Because one can reasonably disagree with it.

    I think a gay person who has been mistreated might have a case for a law suit against the institution that mistreated him/her. But that would be on a case-by-case basis and what goes for one gay person does not go for every gay person.

    For example, if there's a young gay person in a very gay-friendly part of the US, like San Francisco, who has never suffered any real injustice and at worst occasionally gets the stink-eye from some A-hole, I don't see a case for giving him Reparations. Again, I agree that those who suffer real injustice have a case for compensation, but that would be on a case-by-case basis and should not be compensated by a fund that just gives every gay person some money. Really, assuming the real victims are owed serious money for their victimization, they are owed a lot more than what a reparations payment would give them.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Reparations is a governmental policy and the government should not have the goal of removing a viewpoint from the public square.

    But of course people like you and I can, and should, call out things like that.

    But this doesn't have much to do with reparations.
    I disagree. How much better we would have been if the display of hateful, traitorous confederate memorabilia had been outlawed the way nazi stuff had. Look how hard it is to get rid of now that such filth is being supported under the guise of some phony "heritage".

    I'd say instituting policies against hate speech, for example, could be part of the reparations package.

    ---------- Post added at 03:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:53 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But I don't see how reparations is a particularly good response to this.

    If someone beats up a gay person, the ideal correction is for that person to be legally punished for it. If law enforcement take too lax an attitude towards solving crimes against gays, then those particular officers or even the department should receive punishment and I would be fine with them getting sued and the gay victims getting compensated that way.

    But I don't see why every gay person, including those who never experienced that kind of abuse, are entitled to money.
    Because "gay bashing" was indiscriminate, it could've been anyone and the effect was to strike terror into the entire group. The way the Romans would decimate soldiers for showing cowardice.

    ---------- Post added at 03:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And changing the policies and punishing those who were inactive when they should have been active seems like the right response.
    Part of it, I agree.

    ---------- Post added at 03:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:01 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    It doesn't change the fact that nerds are treated worse in our society than cool people. So clearly just suffering some level of lesser treatment than others is not a reason for compensation
    I'd tentatively agree with that. Depends on what you mean by nerd. For example, if you don't have the latest fashions, best clothes, you might been seen of and treated less than others. I wouldn't argue that someone should therefore be given a new wardrobe. Although schools do institute dress codes and uniform policies to deal with this. Schools do deal with neglected children as a matter of duty of care if even just to note it. Adding policies and procedures for dealing with a child's sexuality would be part of the package. Those who could not enjoy or otherwise benefit from their education because of the lack of those protections should be compensated.

    ---------- Post added at 03:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Really, assuming the real victims are owed serious money for their victimization, they are owed a lot more than what a reparations payment would give them.
    Right, I would argue that they are two different, yet connected, things. Getting your medical bills paid for having your head kicked in wouldn't disqualify you for reparations.

    ---------- Post added at 03:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:24 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    I think a gay person who has been mistreated might have a case for a law suit against the institution that mistreated him/her. But that would be on a case-by-case basis and what goes for one gay person does not go for every gay person.

    For example, if there's a young gay person in a very gay-friendly part of the US, like San Francisco, who has never suffered any real injustice and at worst occasionally gets the stink-eye from some A-hole, I don't see a case for giving him Reparations.
    A hamster in a cage, safe with it's water, nest and food bowl is still in a cage. That person, even if they never wanted it, never had the same chance as everyone else. That homosexuals built their refuges to be comfortable is irrelevant. Big cities in blue states were your best bets and don't think of joining the military.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I disagree. How much better we would have been if the display of hateful, traitorous confederate memorabilia had been outlawed the way nazi stuff had. Look how hard it is to get rid of now that such filth is being supported under the guise of some phony "heritage".

    I'd say instituting policies against hate speech, for example, could be part of the reparations package.
    First off, let's stick with reparations as "financial compensation". If the definition is unclear, then it's unclear what is being debated.

    And since I support the first amendment of the US constitution, I'm against infringing on people's right to free speech. What if Trump wins a second term and labels any expression of disapproval of him to be "hate speech" and therefore outlaws all criticism of him? The reason he can't do this is because we have the right to free speech. Protecting the right to say important things comes with the right to say sh*tty things as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Because "gay bashing" was indiscriminate, it could've been anyone and the effect was to strike terror into the entire group. The way the Romans would decimate soldiers for showing cowardice.
    Okay. But that doesn't change the issue that the perpetrator of the bashing is ONE person and if anyone owes anyone compensation for his misdeeds, it's that ONE person. And I have no objection to his victims suing him for money and while I don't think the whole gay community is likewise entitled to money from him, I won't challenge that argument if you choose to forward it.

    But I don't see why any of my money (I assume the money for reparations comes from taxpayers of which I am one) needs to be paid to gay people who weren't directly victimized by the basher but perhaps felt intimidated because of his actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'd tentatively agree with that. Depends on what you mean by nerd. For example, if you don't have the latest fashions, best clothes, you might been seen of and treated less than others. I wouldn't argue that someone should therefore be given a new wardrobe. Although schools do institute dress codes and uniform policies to deal with this. Schools do deal with neglected children as a matter of duty of care if even just to note it. Adding policies and procedures for dealing with a child's sexuality would be part of the package. Those who could not enjoy or otherwise benefit from their education because of the lack of those protections should be compensated.
    So what about gays who did just fine in school and had a good time? And what about weird straight kids who were bullied and therefore could not benefit from school?

    If we are compensating based on how school treated them, the weird unpopular kid is more deserving of compensation than the happy successful gay kid.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    A hamster in a cage, safe with it's water, nest and food bowl is still in a cage. That person, even if they never wanted it, never had the same chance as everyone else. That homosexuals built their refuges to be comfortable is irrelevant. Big cities in blue states were your best bets and don't think of joining the military.
    But it's not a cage. While big cities tend to be more welcoming to gays, they are legally allowed everywhere else in the country, including the military.

    And if someone is being so hateful towards gays in their area that it's making the gays lives difficult enough to deserve compensation for the inconvenience caused, then clearly the victims of his hatred should have a solid legal case to sue him for it. And in that case, that's the guy that owed them money and those who aren't giving gays a hard time like him don't owe them compensation for making their lives difficult.

    I personally have no problem with gays and have gay friends and relatives. So whatever problems gays may have if they move into my area (although from what I can tell, my city is pretty welcoming - I believe my city is known for being popular with lesbians), I'm not part of the problem and therefore am not a legitimate target for a civil suit regarding discrimination. And likewise that would mean that I am not one who should be compensating gays for the problems that others do cause them.

    So while I can agree that certain gays are entitled to monies from certain parties (and I could even see the government being the target of a specific suit and then the victims are entitled to some taxpayer money), I don't see how straight people as a group owe gay people as a group money.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    First off, let's stick with reparations as "financial compensation". If the definition is unclear, then it's unclear what is being debated.
    I'll agree as long as financial compensation includes its many forms. Providing educational or medical assistance for example would be included as well as direct cash payments.

    ---------- Post added at 10:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And since I support the first amendment of the US constitution, I'm against infringing on people's right to free speech. What if Trump wins a second term and labels any expression of disapproval of him to be "hate speech" and therefore outlaws all criticism of him? The reason he can't do this is because we have the right to free speech. Protecting the right to say important things comes with the right to say sh*tty things as well.
    Indeed, he has tried with his "fake news" BS and I would generally agree. There are, however, limits on free speech. You can't just say what you want.

    ---------- Post added at 10:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Okay. But that doesn't change the issue that the perpetrator of the bashing is ONE person and if anyone owes anyone compensation for his misdeeds, it's that ONE person. And I have no objection to his victims suing him for money and while I don't think the whole gay community is likewise entitled to money from him, I won't challenge that argument if you choose to forward it.

    But I don't see why any of my money (I assume the money for reparations comes from taxpayers of which I am one) needs to be paid to gay people who weren't directly victimized by the basher but perhaps felt intimidated because of his actions.
    Because this was a thing and it was allowed to be a thing because the repercussions were so mild, if they existed at all. Next time you see a policeman with a horse in the park go up to his horse and slap it across the face in a moment of hilarity. Your ass will be grass. As the OP stated this was a matter of "prevailing social attitudes" which were unjust. Society has a duty to changes and make amends, not you personally.

    ---------- Post added at 11:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So what about gays who did just fine in school and had a good time? And what about weird straight kids who were bullied and therefore could not benefit from school?

    If we are compensating based on how school treated them, the weird unpopular kid is more deserving of compensation than the happy successful gay kid.
    Like I said in my last response we're compensating on prevailing social attitudes, not a on a case by case basis - that would be handled separately, the victim of gay bashing suing his assailant for example. I, for example, was smart enough to keep my mouth shut and remain closeted. Although I'd argue that that still constituted harm.

    ---------- Post added at 11:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But it's not a cage. While big cities tend to be more welcoming to gays, they are legally allowed everywhere else in the country, including the military.
    Although I'll agree that the military situation has gotten better I doubt it has improved completely. We just had our president institute a trans ban and there is plenty of anti-gay legislation still on the books all over the country.

    ---------- Post added at 11:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So while I can agree that certain gays are entitled to monies from certain parties (and I could even see the government being the target of a specific suit and then the victims are entitled to some taxpayer money), I don't see how straight people as a group owe gay people as a group money.
    That's a mischaracterization. It wouldn't just be straight people paying gay people.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'll agree as long as financial compensation includes its many forms. Providing educational or medical assistance for example would be included as well as direct cash payments.
    Well, let me put it this way. Let's say you won the argument on a national lever and the government decided to pay money to every gay citizen to pay for past and present mistreatment. So every gay person received some money from the government. That would accurately be called reparations. And it would not fail to be called reparations if it didn't include medical assistance, etc.

    So while reparations can take more than one form, cash payments IS reparations and likewise IS what people generally think when they hear the term reparations.

    I don't see the point of unnecessarily complicating the debate by introducing other forms of compensation beyond cash payment. So while I will allow you to discuss other things you would like to see, I am only going to discuss paying money.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Indeed, he has tried with his "fake news" BS and I would generally agree. There are, however, limits on free speech. You can't just say what you want.
    With very few exceptions, you can say what your want.

    So let me say that I am not for limiting free speech any further than the very few specific exceptions to free speech that already exist and therefore do not support further restricting our right to free speech and therefore do not support outlawing "hate speech". If we outlaw something so nebulous as "hate speech", then we risk having things that should be allowed, such as criticizing our political figures in "too strong" a fashion being outlawed. Perhaps your justified criticism of heterosexual society in the past (the general basis for your reparation argument here) would be banned as "hate speech" against straights and you would not be allowed to make your argument for reparations here.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Because this was a thing and it was allowed to be a thing because the repercussions were so mild, if they existed at all. Next time you see a policeman with a horse in the park go up to his horse and slap it across the face in a moment of hilarity. Your ass will be grass. As the OP stated this was a matter of "prevailing social attitudes" which were unjust. Society has a duty to changes and make amends, not you personally.
    But reparations, assuming they are funded with tax dollars, do come, in part, from me personally (since I'm one of the persons whose tax dollars will be used). So for all of us to to pay our money for reparations, there needs to be an argument that explains why all of us needs to pay. So yes, you do need to explain why I, as part of the society that needs to pay, need to pay.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Like I said in my last response we're compensating on prevailing social attitudes, not a on a case by case basis - that would be handled separately, the victim of gay bashing suing his assailant for example. I, for example, was smart enough to keep my mouth shut and remain closeted. Although I'd argue that that still constituted harm.
    And I don't think a somewhat negative societal attitude is at all a valid reason for compensation. Reparations, in effect, is a societal civil law suit where the plaintiff are the gays and the defendants is society at large and the plaintiff does have to present a strong enough case to win the law suit for compensation just like a person needs to make a successful case against another person to win the lawsuit.

    And "attitude" does not seem like much of a case. Society did not generally condone gay bashing. I'm sure there are INDIVIDUAL police departments who didn't take such a case as seriouisly as the should due to bias but again, that's on that individual police department and if there's to be a lawsuit, the defendant should be that police department, not everyone in the US, including me.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Although I'll agree that the military situation has gotten better I doubt it has improved completely. We just had our president institute a trans ban and there is plenty of anti-gay legislation still on the books all over the country.
    And the solution for those problems is the remove the trans ban. And if there is to be a lawsuit over the trans ban, the plaintiffs would be those particular people who were removed from service or were not allowed to join when they applied. So this is not a case that warrants reparations since only those who were directly effected (which I assume is a minority of the trans community) are the only ones who are entitled to compensation for this.

    And the solution for any current anti-gay laws on the books is to remove the laws. And if there are individual gays who feel that the laws harmed them and can show that they were harmed, I would not uniformly deny them the right to sue for the harm done. But gays who were not directly effected by these laws don't have a case for compensation.

    If, say, in Texas gays were not allowed to adopt, then I'd be fine if a gay couple who wanted to adopt but couldn't due to the law, sued the state of Texas on that basis. But that is not reparations even if they won the case and got money.

    So I still don't see how I, a member of heterosexual society, owe you, a member of gay society, money (which would be the case is straight society owes gays society reparations).



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    That's a mischaracterization. It wouldn't just be straight people paying gay people.
    Yes it would be.

    The money comes from society, which means every heterosexual is paying for it, and the money goes to gay people. So it is straights paying gays money.
    Last edited by mican333; July 28th, 2019 at 08:13 AM.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    So let me say that I am not for limiting free speech any further than the very few specific exceptions to free speech that already exist and therefore do not support further restricting our right to free speech and therefore do not support outlawing "hate speech". If we outlaw something so nebulous as "hate speech", then we risk having things that should be allowed, such as criticizing our political figures in "too strong" a fashion being outlawed. Perhaps your justified criticism of heterosexual society in the past (the general basis for your reparation argument here) would be banned as "hate speech" against straights and you would not be allowed to make your argument for reparations here.

    But reparations, assuming they are funded with tax dollars, do come, in part, from me personally (since I'm one of the persons whose tax dollars will be used). So for all of us to to pay our money for reparations, there needs to be an argument that explains why all of us needs to pay. So yes, you do need to explain why I, as part of the society that needs to pay, need to pay.
    Right, "all of us" need to pay because the sanction is against the entire society on all levels. It is not a criticism of heterosexual society or just straight people either. It is a criticism of the entire society. So, in addition to yourself, yes, there will even be homosexuals paying.

    ---------- Post added at 12:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And I don't think a somewhat negative societal attitude is at all a valid reason for compensation. Reparations, in effect, is a societal civil law suit where the plaintiff are the gays and the defendants is society at large and the plaintiff does have to present a strong enough case to win the law suit for compensation just like a person needs to make a successful case against another person to win the lawsuit.

    And "attitude" does not seem like much of a case. Society did not generally condone gay bashing. I'm sure there are INDIVIDUAL police departments who didn't take such a case as seriouisly as the should due to bias but again, that's on that individual police department and if there's to be a lawsuit, the defendant should be that police department, not everyone in the US, including me.
    You can poo-poo it all you want but this was the prevailing social attitude as supported by the OP.

    ---------- Post added at 12:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    So I still don't see how I, a member of heterosexual society, owe you, a member of gay society, money (which would be the case is straight society owes gays society reparations).

    Yes it would be.

    The money comes from society, which means every heterosexual is paying for it, and the money goes to gay people. So it is straights paying gays money.
    Again, no, payments would come from the general fund - from all of us. There wouldn't be a straight tax or anything like that.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Right, "all of us" need to pay because the sanction is against the entire society on all levels. It is not a criticism of heterosexual society or just straight people either. It is a criticism of the entire society. So, in addition to yourself, yes, there will even be homosexuals paying.
    But you need to make some kind of case that someone who isn't already you would agree that the "sins" of our society is something that rises to the level of deserving financial compensation.

    As I said, I consider reparations to be in effect a civil law suit but instead of one person suing another person, the gay community is suing the whole country and just like in a civil case, there needs to be a solid reasoning that the WHOLE society (not individual gay bashers or individual police departments) have committed an action against gays that warrant financial compensation.

    You just saying that you feel that that is the case does not come close to making a case for financial compensation.

    If you have a case, then you should be able to tell me what I did to you to warrant a transfer of funds from me to you.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You can poo-poo it all you want but this was the prevailing social attitude as supported by the OP.
    I'm not saying that there wasn't a prevailing social attitude that was somewhat anti-gay. But that in and of itself doesn't justify financial compensation.

    Hypothetically, right now there is a straight guy who doesn't like you because you are gay and he even bad-mouths you to others. And if you want to argue that he's a bigoted jerk, I agree. But I don't see how he owes you money because he doesn't like you for being gay. And likewise extend to the society (although today many people have no problem with gays and fully support them), the case doesn't change.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Again, no, payments would come from the general fund - from all of us. There wouldn't be a straight tax or anything like that.
    But it doesn't change the end result is that you are getting money from straight people. If you and I are both taxed a dollar for the fund and then you get ten dollars from the fund, then I am down one dollar and you are up nine dollars so when you do the math, essentially I and eight other straight persons gave you a dollar.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But it doesn't change the end result is that you are getting money from straight people. If you and I are both taxed a dollar for the fund and then you get ten dollars from the fund, then I am down one dollar and you are up nine dollars so when you do the math, essentially I and eight other straight persons gave you a dollar.
    What if you don't pay any taxes? What if I pay a greater share?

    ---------- Post added at 09:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    I'm not saying that there wasn't a prevailing social attitude that was somewhat anti-gay. But that in and of itself doesn't justify financial compensation.

    Hypothetically, right now there is a straight guy who doesn't like you because you are gay and he even bad-mouths you to others. And if you want to argue that he's a bigoted jerk, I agree. But I don't see how he owes you money because he doesn't like you for being gay. And likewise extend to the society (although today many people have no problem with gays and fully support them), the case doesn't change.
    He doesn't. Let's say, however, that for the past 13 years I've had to withstand his insults at work all day long and nothing was done about it because there were no legal protections for me.

    I'd refer you back to the OP. If you question that those prevailing social attitudes didn't have actual policy ramifications then I disagree.

    ---------- Post added at 09:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    If you have a case, then you should be able to tell me what I did to you to warrant a transfer of funds from me to you.
    You're saying the homosexual community was never persecuted? I refer back to the examples given and still existent from the OP.
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    Re: Gay Reparations

    How much money we talken?
    To serve man.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    What if you don't pay any taxes? What if I pay a greater share?
    I don't see the relevance of this question.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    He doesn't. Let's say, however, that for the past 13 years I've had to withstand his insults at work all day long and nothing was done about it because there were no legal protections for me.
    Then I would say that you have the basis for a lawsuit against your employer.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'd refer you back to the OP. If you question that those prevailing social attitudes didn't have actual policy ramifications then I disagree.
    I wouldn't say zero effect but if you are going to argue that it's to the extent where every gay person, even if they never suffered significantly due to prevailing social attitudes (like the popular gay kid who went on to have a great career) deserve compensation, then you need to make that argument.

    The jerk at work scenario is a specific scenario and if it's to be addressed, the most effective solution lies at the level of where you directly suffered your problem, which is at that specific work place. I don't see how giving the happy gay person in that hypothetical money would do you any good.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    You're saying the homosexual community was never persecuted?.
    I did not say that.

    Are you saying that I persecuted gays, including you?

    If so, please explain.

    If not, then as I said If you have a case, then you should be able to tell me what I did to you to warrant a transfer of funds from me to you.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    Then I would say that you have the basis for a lawsuit against your employer.
    There were no legal protections for me, as I stated, there would be no lawsuit possible.

    ---------- Post added at 11:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:54 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post

    If not, then as I said If you have a case, then you should be able to tell me what I did to you to warrant a transfer of funds from me to you.
    It's not from you to me, it's from society to a group of harmed individuals. That you don't happen to belong to that group is irrelevant, for, if you did happen to belong to that group you would also be eligible. Just as in any reparation scenario.

    ---------- Post added at 11:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I wouldn't say zero effect but if you are going to argue that it's to the extent where every gay person, even if they never suffered significantly due to prevailing social attitudes (like the popular gay kid who went on to have a great career) deserve compensation, then you need to make that argument.
    Sure, I can name any number of ills that effected him. Couldn't honestly join the military, be married, enjoy partner benefits with his employer, live in any number of places as his natural self.

    ---------- Post added at 12:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    How much money we talken?
    I'm not sure. Maybe we'd look at some similar situation. I'm at a point in my life where I'd like cash.

    ---------- Post added at 12:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I don't see the relevance of this question.
    Because you seem fixated on the transfer of funds rather than the purpose of the reparations.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    I'm not sure. Maybe we'd look at some similar situation. I'm at a point in my life where I'd like cash.
    What similar situations? We can't even get reparations for slaves, and at least there was an idea for 40 acres and donkey.
    This seems unprecedented.
    Still, those advocating should have some sense of what they want. I know I like money too. So whatever form of argument and compensation is being sought.. I'm interested in applying to my pet project as well.
    To serve man.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    There were no legal protections for me, as I stated, there would be no lawsuit possible.
    Regardless, you suffered from a specific event and if you deserve compensation for what happened during that event, the solution is still one person (you) suing the appropriate institution, not reparations for every gay person whether they had a similar experience of not.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    It's not from you to me, it's from society to a group of harmed individuals. That you don't happen to belong to that group is irrelevant, for, if you did happen to belong to that group you would also be eligible. Just as in any reparation scenario.
    I'm part of society which means if society is responsible then I am responsible in some way. And if all gay persons are deserving of compensation from society, then you are deserving of compensation from me.

    If you don't deserve compensation from me, then you don't deserve compensation from society as a whole.


    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Sure, I can name any number of ills that effected him. Couldn't honestly join the military, be married, enjoy partner benefits with his employer, live in any number of places as his natural self.
    I'm pretty sure that today a gay person can do all of those things.



    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Because you seem fixated on the transfer of funds rather than the purpose of the reparations.
    I don't see the relevance of the question to the issue of the purpose of reparations either.

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    Re: Gay Reparations

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    What similar situations? We can't even get reparations for slaves, and at least there was an idea for 40 acres and donkey.
    This seems unprecedented.
    Still, those advocating should have some sense of what they want. I know I like money too. So whatever form of argument and compensation is being sought.. I'm interested in applying to my pet project as well.
    Sure. I'm pretty sure the Germans do something recognizing their past atrocious behavior.

    ---------- Post added at 10:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Regardless, you suffered from a specific event and if you deserve compensation for what happened during that event, the solution is still one person (you) suing the appropriate institution, not reparations for every gay person whether they had a similar experience of not.
    Why not? The teacher who feared for the loss of her job and successfully hid and altered her life and so wasn't fired deserves compensation as well. And what about the institution that was just following the law? Why are they accountable?

    ---------- Post added at 10:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I'm part of society which means if society is responsible then I am responsible in some way. And if all gay persons are deserving of compensation from society, then you are deserving of compensation from me.

    If you don't deserve compensation from me, then you don't deserve compensation from society as a whole.
    Sure, agreed, doesn't really make a difference.

    ---------- Post added at 10:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I'm pretty sure that today a gay person can do all of those things.
    Irrelevant to the discussion. We're talking about a historical ill.

    ---------- Post added at 10:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I don't see the relevance of the question to the issue of the purpose of reparations either.
    Neither do I. Taxes are based on the ability to pay. I pay for plenty of things I'd rather not pay for.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
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