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  1. #41
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    Re: The Mueller Report

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    1) Because none of those crimes were related to the president colluded with Russia to effect the election (which they ruled they didn't have evidence of).
    There was collusion with Russia and evidence, Mueller found it and I presented it.

    ---------- Post added at 01:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    2) Because none of those crimes were related to obstruction. (Which they refused to rule on).
    .. which are the two things Meular was investigating.. which means they were ancillary crimes.
    Obstruction is a crime.

    ---------- Post added at 01:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:48 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    and I responded.
    In the area we are discussing the two had the same powers, and were under the same rules.
    Nope.

    ---------- Post added at 01:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:49 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Certainly, because his statement "had we been able to exonerate we would have said so" is outside the bounds of his office.
    Further it carries an assumption of guilt, which is also outside the bounds of his office.
    And he gave his reasons for so doing...obstruction of justice.

    ---------- Post added at 01:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    Not relevant to what we are discussing.
    Sure is.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  2. #42
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    Re: The Mueller Report

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    Finally, it isn't the roll of his office to play historian.
    That's an uneducated opinion.

    Trump, however, is not a king. His time as president is fleeting at which time he would be able to be indicted. He is also susceptible to impeachment. it is therefore in the public's interest to preserve evidence.

    Both conclusions of the OLC ====> Via the Mueller Report ====> To you.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  3. #43
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    Re: The Mueller Report

    Click image for larger version. 

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    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  4. #44
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    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

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  6. #45
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    Re: The Mueller Report

    When does the investigation into Hillary Clinton's solicitation of foreign influence into the election start then? Or does paying foreign gov for info not count?

    Also, the linked source is simply wrong on the legal sense. Speech and thus information is not illegal to receive, and is not covered by "foriegn contributions" as that is a referance to money.
    To serve man.

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  8. #46
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    Re: The Mueller Report

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I think this issue about getting info from foreign nationals is certainly interesting. If candidate A pays a foreign national $X for dirt on candidate B, then something illegal has occurred. However, if candidate A hires Firm Y who hires the same foreign national for the same $X, then nothing illegal has occurred. Then there are all sorts of gray areas in between. It seems we have a problem with the law such that it is easily circumvented by the moderately savvy.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  10. #47
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    Re: The Mueller Report

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    When does the investigation into Hillary Clinton's solicitation of foreign influence into the election start then?
    *phew* Glad she did no such thing.

    ---------- Post added at 02:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Speech and thus information is not illegal to receive, and is not covered by "foriegn contributions" as that is a referance to money.
    Sure can be such as in the case of insider trading.

    ---------- Post added at 02:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:42 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    However, if candidate A hires Firm Y who hires the same foreign national for the same $X, then nothing illegal has occurred. Then there are all sorts of gray areas in between. It seems we have a problem with the law such that it is easily circumvented by the moderately savvy.
    I think so. Especially in the case where said information was handed over to the FBI...as Steele did. I'm not certain as to the timeline.

    ---------- Post added at 02:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:44 PM ----------

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/52/30121
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  11. #48
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    Re: The Mueller Report

    Except, that she did.

    Also insider trading is about fraud and a kind of theft.
    Also, the way it is currently applied imo does violate free speech in unecissary ways. Is it is one thing to punish a CEO for it, it is another to punish his brothers causons nephew whom he told, and has no training in the laws about stock trading or even an idea of what the legal definition of insider trading is. Inshort the crime is the one spreading the inside information from the inside, not the hearing of it.
    To serve man.

  12. #49
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    Re: The Mueller Report

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Except, that she did.

    Also insider trading is about fraud and a kind of theft.
    Also, the way it is currently applied imo does violate free speech in unecissary ways. Is it is one thing to punish a CEO for it, it is another to punish his brothers causons nephew whom he told, and has no training in the laws about stock trading or even an idea of what the legal definition of insider trading is. Inshort the crime is the one spreading the inside information from the inside, not the hearing of it.
    So, here is the oddity of this particular law, not accepting foreign aid for money. It is ok for candidate A to hire firm B which then hires contractor C who pay foreign agent P for info. However, if A directly pays P, then a law is broken. If we are talking strictly about Hillary Clinton and whether she broke the law by hiring Fusion GPS which then hired a contractor which hired a foreign agent, probably no laws were broken. Now, had Hillary directly paid agent P, very different legal issue. Unlikely such a direct trail exists nor if it did exist, could be proven.

    The question we should be asking is, why? Why isn't Clinton's behavior criminal/illegal? We should ask this not to lock up Hillary. We should ask this to clarify what we want to allow for the purposes of our elections and campaigns. The current law, as it stands, simply allows unethical behavior to presume legality because it uses abstraction. I mean, are we going to claim, with seriousness, that Trump deserves to be investigated for crimes because his oppo research was less sophisticated than Clinton's? Really kind of absurd when you drill down into it. The current law is ridiculous.

    Hillary broke plenty of laws, but this probably isn't one of them. On that account, I don't really think Trump broke laws here either. He accepted information, but it isn't obvious or provable that he paid for it. That isn't against the law either.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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  14. #50
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    Re: The Mueller Report

    @IBELSD
    I completely agree. For some reason the opponents of Trump, even in positions of authority, are using layperson term instead of the strict legal sense. This is why we get accusations of impeachment and cover up and all sorts of other accusations, where there is no actual crime in the action.

    so they will say "we can't accept ANY info from a foreign agent" ... but not really. Really it's more like what you said. I don't think the political climate is capable of having the debate you are pointing out should be the case.

    Like, is it o.k. for trump or Hillary to get info directly from Puttin as long as they don't pay him and they report it to the FBI? Are they supposed to close their eyes when handling it? I mean no one wants foreign interference... but I don't see the relevant difference here.

    To me, the cries from the left on legal technical jargon (as you lay out) really undermines the moral outrage when it isn't equally applied.

    Trumped payed for oppo research with Pennies, and your supposed to only use quarters! Grrrr.
    To serve man.

  15. #51
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    Re: The Mueller Report

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Also insider trading is about fraud and a kind of theft.
    Also, the way it is currently applied imo does violate free speech in unecissary ways. Is it is one thing to punish a CEO for it, it is another to punish his brothers causons nephew whom he told, and has no training in the laws about stock trading or even an idea of what the legal definition of insider trading is. Inshort the crime is the one spreading the inside information from the inside, not the hearing of it.
    You're right, hearing about it is not the crime. It's when you act on it.

    ---------- Post added at 10:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    It is ok for candidate A to hire firm B which then hires contractor C who pay foreign agent P for info.
    I don't think Hillary was ever involved.

    ---------- Post added at 10:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post

    Like, is it o.k. for trump or Hillary to get info directly from Puttin
    When did this happen?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  16. #52
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    Re: The Mueller Report

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I don't think Hillary was ever involved.

    You and Hillary are alone on that one. Try and have a serious conversation which isn't completely partisan. You are now claiming Hillary's campaign didn't hire Fusion GPS which didn't hire a contractor which didn't pay a foreign agent for information? That is absurd on its face. I tend to respond to you with because this is the kind of rebuttals you tend to make. They are not serious. You can support your tribe without pretending that they always do the right thing. Give it a try. Its liberating.

    ---------- Post added at 10:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    @IBELSD
    I completely agree. For some reason the opponents of Trump, even in positions of authority, are using layperson term instead of the strict legal sense. This is why we get accusations of impeachment and cover up and all sorts of other accusations, where there is no actual crime in the action.

    so they will say "we can't accept ANY info from a foreign agent" ... but not really. Really it's more like what you said. I don't think the political climate is capable of having the debate you are pointing out should be the case.

    Like, is it o.k. for trump or Hillary to get info directly from Puttin as long as they don't pay him and they report it to the FBI? Are they supposed to close their eyes when handling it? I mean no one wants foreign interference... but I don't see the relevant difference here.

    To me, the cries from the left on legal technical jargon (as you lay out) really undermines the moral outrage when it isn't equally applied.

    Trumped payed for oppo research with Pennies, and your supposed to only use quarters! Grrrr.
    What the Democrats are pulling is straight up third world country crap. It has been two years and they still have not accepted that they lost the election. Between the crazy impeachment talk and the bizarre calls for socialism, WTF! As a party, the Dems have lost their poop.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  17. #53
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    Re: The Mueller Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    You and Hillary are alone on that one. Try and have a serious conversation which isn't completely partisan. You are now claiming Hillary's campaign didn't hire Fusion GPS which didn't hire a contractor which didn't pay a foreign agent for information? That is absurd on its face. I tend to respond to you with because this is the kind of rebuttals you tend to make. They are not serious. You can support your tribe without pretending that they always do the right thing. Give it a try. Its liberating.[COLOR="Silver"]
    Wasn't it the DNC that hired Fusion GPS?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  18. #54
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    Re: The Mueller Report

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Wasn't it the DNC that hired Fusion GPS?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_GPS
    "From April 2016 through October 2016, the law firm
    Perkins Coie
    , on behalf of the Clinton campaign and the
    Democratic National Committee
    , retained Fusion GPS to continue opposition research on Trump"

    In logic the word AND means both.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  19. #55
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    Re: The Mueller Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_GPS
    "From April 2016 through October 2016, the law firm
    Perkins Coie
    , on behalf of the Clinton campaign and the
    Democratic National Committee
    , retained Fusion GPS to continue opposition research on Trump"

    In logic the word AND means both.
    I'll stipulate with that and will tentatively agree that Hillary is responsible for what her campaign does - maybe not always accountable.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  20. #56
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    Re: The Mueller Report

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I'll stipulate with that and will tentatively agree that Hillary is responsible for what her campaign does - maybe not always accountable.
    And I'll tentatively note this event down on my calendar as the day you actually provided some true introspection and objective criticism of Hillary. I won't really note this down in my calendar, but it is an amazing event.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  21. #57
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    Re: The Mueller Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    And I'll tentatively note this event down on my calendar as the day you actually provided some true introspection and objective criticism of Hillary. I won't really note this down in my calendar, but it is an amazing event.
    I wouldn't call it criticism.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  22. #58
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    Re: The Mueller Report

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    I wouldn't call it criticism.
    Of course not. That'd be a bridge too far for you.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  23. #59
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    Re: The Mueller Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Of course not. That'd be a bridge too far for you.
    Yes, I mean if she were actually involved then maybe, depending on the involvement. Like "Russia if you're listening..." is deserving of criticism (along with the hundreds of contacts between the Trump campaign and Russians).
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  24. #60
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    Re: The Mueller Report

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Yes, I mean if she were actually involved then maybe, depending on the involvement. Like "Russia if you're listening..." is deserving of criticism (along with the hundreds of contacts between the Trump campaign and Russians).
    I criticize conservatives and Republicans all the time. I have no allegiance to the GOP. However, you are unable to mount a criticism of Hillary for anything. I mean, her campaign which is her responsibility hired Fusion GPS which used foreign agents to get dirt on her campaign opponents. This isn't some outlandish theory. This is among the things we know. It is a fact. How much direct involvement did she have? That is theory and people can differ on their opinions. However, if she is responsible for the behavior of her campaign and her campaign acted in an unsavory or unethical manner, she is responsible. Again, I made it clear earlier, I don't think her campaign broke the law. I explained why. I explained how the law is broken. However, it does not make her behavior (or her campaign's behavior) any more justifiable. Either using foreign agents to acquire opposition research is acceptable or it isn't. It seems the law has simply made it legal so long as it is properly abstracted. That is entirely silly. I except it as the law though.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

 

 
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