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  1. #21
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    Re: Trump Orders Barr to Investigate the Investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You're quoting someone's opinion about the report, not the actual report. Do show me the information in the report you think is important.
    How's that different from what you did with the "Titanic" metaphor.

    From page 352 of the report - link to the full report is posted above.

    We similarly concluded that the FBI had sufficient predication to open full
    counterintelligence investigations of Papadopoulos, Page, Flynn, and Manafort in
    August 2016. The investigation of Papadopoulos was predicated upon his alleged
    statements in May 2016 to an employee of the FFG. According to the opening EC,
    Papadopoulos was "identical to the individual who made statements indicating that
    he is knowledgeable that the Russians made a suggestion to the Trump team that
    they could assist the Trump campaign with an anonymous release of information
    during the campaign that would be damaging to the Clinton campaign." The three
    other cases were predicated on information developed by the Crossfire Hurricane
    team through law enforcement database and open source searches, conducted to
    determine which individuals associated with the Trump campaign may have been in
    a position to have received the alleged offer of assistance from Russia. As
    described in Chapter Three, through these efforts, the Crossfire Hurricane team
    identified three individuals-Page, Manafort, and Flynn-associated with the Trump
    campaign with either ties to Russia or a history of travel to Russia, two of whom
    (Page and Manafort) were already the subjects of open FBI investigations
    pertaining to, in part, their Russia-related activities. The FBI determined that this
    information, taken together with the information from the FFG indicating Russia had
    made a suggestion to the Trump team that it could assist by releasing information
    damaging to candidate Clinton, stated an articulable factual basis reasonably
    indicating activity may be occurring that may constitute a federal crime or a threat
    to national security. As with the opening of Crossfire Hurricane, we concluded that
    the quantum of information articulated by the FBI to open these individual
    investigations was sufficient to satisfy the low threshold established by Department
    and FBI predication policy, particularly in the context of the FBI's separate and
    ongoing investigative efforts to address Russian interference in 2016 U.S. elections.


    ---------- Post added at 03:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:11 PM ----------

    So do show me now where the report says the purpose was politically motivated to sink the Trump presidency - as you claimed.

    ---------- Post added at 03:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:13 PM ----------

    From page XIV of the executive summary:

    Conclusions Concerning All Four FISA Applications

    We concluded that the failures described above
    and in this report represent serious performance
    failures by the supervisory and non-supervisory agents
    with responsibility over the FISA applications.
    These
    failures prevented OI from fully performing its
    gatekeeper function and deprived the decision makers
    the opportunity to make fully informed decisions.
    Although some of the factual misstatements and
    omissions we fou nd in t his review were arguably more
    significant than others, we believe t hat all of them
    taken together resulted in FISA applications that made
    it appear that the information supporting probable
    cause was stronger than was actually the case.
    We identified at least 17 significant errors or
    omissions in the Carter Page FISA applications, and
    many additional errors in the Woods Procedures. These
    errors and omissions resulted from case agents
    providing wrong or incomplete infor mation to OI and
    failing to flag important issues for discussion. While we
    did not find documentary or testimonial evidence of
    intentional misconduct on the part of the case agents
    who assisted OI in preparing the applications, or the
    agents and supervisors who performed the Woods
    Procedures
    , we also did not receive satisfactory
    explanations for the errors or problems we identified.
    In most instances, t he agents and supervisors told us
    that they either did not know or recall why the
    information was not shared with OI, that the failure to
    do so may have been an oversight, that they did not
    recognize at t he time the relevance of t he information
    to t he FISA application, or that they did not believe the
    missing information to be significant . On this last point,
    we believe that case agents may have improperly
    substituted their own j udgments in place of the
    j udgment of OI, or in place of the court, to weigh t_he
    probative va lue of t he information. Further, the failure
    to update OI on all significant case developments
    relevant to the FISA applications led us to conclude that
    the agents and supervisors did not give appropriate
    attention or treatment to t he facts that cut against
    probable cause, or reassess t he information supporting
    probable cause as the investigation progressed. The
    agents and SSAs also did not follow, or appear to even
    know, the requirements in t he Woods Procedures to reverify
    the factual assertions from previous applications that are
    repeated in renewal applications and verify
    source characterization statements with the CHS
    handling agent and document the verification in the
    Woods File.
    That so many basic and fundamental errors
    were made by three separate, hand- picked teams on
    one of the most sensitive FBI investigations that was
    briefed to the highest levels within the FBI, and that FBI
    officials expected would eventually be subjected to
    close scrutiny, raised significant questions regarding the
    FBI chain of command's management and supervision
    of the FISA process.
    FBI Headquarters established a
    chain of command for Crossfire Hurricane that included
    close supervision by senior CD managers, who then
    briefed FBI leadership throughout the investigation.
    Although we do not expect managers and supervisors to
    know every fact about an investigation, or senior
    officials to know all the details of cases about which
    they are briefed, in a sensitive, high-priority matter like
    this one, it is reasonable to expect that they will take
    the necessary steps to ensure that they are sufficiently
    familiar with the facts and circumstances supporting
    and potentially undermining a FISA application in order
    to provide effective oversight, consistent with their level
    of supervisory responsibility. We concluded that the
    information that was known to the managers,
    supervisors, and senior officials should have resulted in
    questions being raised regarding the reliability of the
    Steele reporting and the probable cause supporting the
    FISA applications, but did not.
    In our view, this was a failure of not only the
    operational team, but also of the managers and
    supervisors, including senior officials, in the chain of
    command. For these reasons, we recommend that the
    FBI review the performance of the employees who had
    responsibility for the preparation, Woods review, or
    approval of the FISA applications, as well as the
    managers and supervisors in the chain of command of
    the Carter Page investigation, including senior officials,
    and take any action deemed appropriate. In addition,
    given the extensive compliance failures we identified in
    this review, we believe that additional OIG oversight
    work is required to assess the FBI's compliance with
    Department and FBI FISA-related policies that seek to
    protect the civil liberties of U.S. persons. Accordingly,
    we have today initiated an OIG audit that will further
    examine the FBI's compliance with the Woods
    Procedures in FISA applications that target U.S. persons
    in both counterintelligence and counterterrorism
    investigations. This audit will be informed by the
    findings in this review, as well as by our prior work over
    the past 15 years on the Department's and FBI's use of
    national security and surveillance authorities, including
    authorities under FISA, as detailed in Chapter One.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  2. #22
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    Re: Trump Orders Barr to Investigate the Investigation

    The old absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence applies here. It cannot be ruled out that those FBI agents and attorneys who lied and misrepresented facts also managed to hide their motivations. And the absence of any other apparent motivation suggests that continued targeting of Trump's campaign to hurt him politically was the real objective.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  3. #23
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    Re: Trump Orders Barr to Investigate the Investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The old absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence applies here. It cannot be ruled out that those FBI agents and attorneys who lied and misrepresented facts also managed to hide their motivations. And the absence of any other apparent motivation suggests that continued targeting of Trump's campaign to hurt him politically was the real objective.
    But there were explanations and motivations discovered:

    "t he agents and supervisors told us
    that they either did not know or recall why the
    information was not shared with OI, that the failure to
    do so may have been an oversight, that they did not
    recognize at t he time the relevance of t he information
    to t he FISA application, or that they did not believe the
    missing information to be significant"

    It might suggest otherwise to someone with a conspiracy laden mind but there's no evidence of it.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  4. #24
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    Re: Trump Orders Barr to Investigate the Investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    But there were explanations and motivations discovered:

    "t he agents and supervisors told us
    that they either did not know or recall why the
    information was not shared with OI, that the failure to
    do so may have been an oversight, that they did not
    recognize at t he time the relevance of t he information
    to t he FISA application, or that they did not believe the
    missing information to be significant"

    It might suggest otherwise to someone with a conspiracy laden mind but there's no evidence of it.
    There is no discovery of a motivation in what you quoted. Only lack of explanation and possible evasions.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  5. #25
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    Re: Trump Orders Barr to Investigate the Investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    There is no discovery of a motivation in what you quoted. Only lack of explanation and possible evasions.
    Sure there is:

    "they did not
    recognize at t he time the relevance of t he information
    to t he FISA application"

    One possible explanation.

    Regardless, the lack of any motivation or evidence or whatever does not mean your conspiracy theory is therefore true.

    That's an argument from ignorance.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  6. #26
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    Re: Trump Orders Barr to Investigate the Investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post

    That's an argument from ignorance.
    No, it's not. I'm not saying it must be true because it hasn't been proven false. I'm saying that they could have deliberately targeted Trump and his campaign despite the lack of evidence. And because I haven't heard a better, more convincing explanation for their actions.
    Last edited by evensaul; December 11th, 2019 at 12:04 AM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  7. #27
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    Re: Trump Orders Barr to Investigate the Investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    I'm not saying it must be true because it hasn't been proven false.
    Huh? That exactly what you're saying.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  8. #28
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    Re: Trump Orders Barr to Investigate the Investigation

    Trump called the FBI 'scum' and hit out at the report that discredited his theory the Russia probe was a deep state plot at a wild Pennsylvania rally

    President Donald Trump at a rally in Pennsylvania on Tuesday night lashed out at the FBI calling staff of the agency "scum."

    He also doubled down on discredited conspiracy theories following the release of a report which undermined the president's claims that the Russia probe was a "deep state" plot to damage his presidency.

    During the rally Trump repeated claims that the FBI had "spied" on his 2016 campaign that in a report released the day before Justice Department Inspector General Michael Horowitz had found to be groundless.

    "When the FBI uncovered evidence showing that we did absolutely nothing wrong, which was right at the beginning, they hid that exonerating, you know that, they hid it," Trump claimed.

    "They hid it so nobody could see it and they could keep this hoax going on for two more years. They knew right at the beginning."

    The report in fact found that the Russia probe was launched on the basis of multiple contacts between Trump campaign officials and Russians.

    "The FBI also sent to multiple undercover human spies to surveillance and record people associated with our campaign," continued the president.

    "Look how they've hurt people. They've destroyed the lives of people that were great people, that are still great people. Their lives have been destroyed by scum. OK, by scum."

    The long anticipated report released on Monday found that the FBI was justified in opening an investigation into contacts between Russia and Trump officials and concluded that top officials were not driven by "political bias or improper motivation" in doing so.

    It found no evidence that the FBI spied on Trump's campaign.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  9. #29
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    Re: Trump Orders Barr to Investigate the Investigation

    Any FBI agent, attorney or staffer who targeted Trump or his campaign for political purposes is scum.

    The statement that the FBI did not spy on the Trump campaign is propaganda. Fake news.

    The FISA court was told Carter Page was a foreign agent when the FBI, DoJ, and CIA knew he was not. The court was told Russians had offered Page billions of dollars in an oil-and-gas deal to pay for his help. The FBI, DoJ, and CIA knew there was no such offer.

    The same officials pulled the same trick with the Steele dossier. They knew it was based on unreliable gossip and rumors -- they had that evidence in writing -- and they hid it from the courts. The Horowitz Report says so definitively. They not only hid it; they told the court the exact opposite. They said Steele and his sources were reliable when they knew they were not. They lied to the court, and the judges bought it.

    How important was the Steele dossier to gaining the warrant? The FBI’s own legal counsel said, in internal documents, “this is essentially a single source FISA” (p. 132). That source was the Steele dossier. (Remember when Comey and all the Democrats denied that? There was lots more evidence in the applications, they said. There wasn’t.) Horowitz underscores the dossier’s significance when he concludes it was “central and essential” to gaining the surveillance warrant (p. 359).

    How did the FBI and DoJ know the Steele dossier was garbage? Because they couldn’t substantiate any of its key claims and because they interviewed Steele’s most important source. This “subsource” told them unambiguously that the scandalous claims in the dossier were based on his own statements to Steele but that they were exaggerated and distorted in the dossier. The subsource told the FBI that Steele’s misleading, unverified claims were simply rumors and “bar talk.” Again, the FBI had this damning evidence in hand before it renewed the FISA applications on Carter Page. (It should have had them before the first application, but it didn’t bother.) Again, it lied to the FISA court.

    These are serious crimes, not only against Carter Page but against the true target of the spying, Donald Trump’s campaign and presidency -- and ultimately against the American people. Those who committed the crimes must be held to account. The rule of law must apply to government officials, not just the unwashed masses. In addition, we need to restore confidence in our counterintelligence tools, which are essential for national security. Secret warrants for surveillance are meant to be used only against America’s foreign enemies. Voters will support that, but only if they are convinced the tools won’t be turned on them by a surveillance state. Restoring that confidence requires additional safeguards and accountability for those who ignored the laws and rules already in place.

    We don’t know yet whether the highest-level officials who signed the falsified FISA applications knew about these lies or their centrality to the application. The senior officials may have simply been monumentally incompetent fools, duped by their underlings. Still, the senior officials who signed the documents had a duty to check the information and either failed in that duty or lied about it. They told the court the information was truthful and verified when it was not, that the sources were reliable when they were not. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...d__141937.html

    SCUM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  10. #30
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    Re: Trump Orders Barr to Investigate the Investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    [INDENT][INDENT]The FISA court was told Carter Page was a foreign agent when the FBI, DoJ, and CIA knew he was not.
    That is incorrect. Page's previous relationship with the CIA was seen as old and irrelevant and was omitted. It probably shouldn't have been omitted but doesn't preclude him from being an agent.

    Your link doesn't work.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  11. #31
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    Re: Trump Orders Barr to Investigate the Investigation

    The FBI agents were lying. Horowitz just couldn't prove it.

    Asked by Republican Sen. Mike Crapo if the 17 “significant errors or omissions” he found in the FBI’s surveillance operation could possibly be “accidental,” Horowitz said: “I would be skeptical.”

    He went on to explain “the answers we got were not satisfactory [so] we’re left trying to understand how could all these errors have occurred over a nine-month period on three teams hand-picked, on . . . the highest-profile case of the FBI, going to the very top of the organization, involving a presidential campaign.” https://nypost.com/2019/12/11/ig-rep...ttempt-devine/


    ---------- Post added at 07:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:43 AM ----------

    YES, the FBI Spied on the Trump Campaign

    The newly released report from Justice Department Inspector General Michael Horowitz shows that by any definition the FBI did indeed spy.

    The proof is in the details of the report. In addition to the much-discussed wiretap of Trump campaign foreign policy adviser Carter Page, Horowitz discussed the bureau's use of what is called a CHS — a confidential human source, or, in more common terms, an informant, and a UCE — an undercover employee, or a secret agent, to gather information from at least three targets in the Trump campaign. One was Page, another was George Papadopoulos, also a member of the advisory team, and the third was an unnamed "high-level Trump campaign official who was not a subject of the Crossfire Hurricane investigation."

    Horowitz described "multiple CHS operations undertaken by the Crossfire Hurricane team." There were "numerous CHS interactions with Page and Papadopoulos." There was the CHS contact with the high-level campaign official. And then there were "additional CHSs" who attempted to contact Papadopoulos but did not succeed.

    All the meetings and conversations were secretly recorded by the FBI. Some were also monitored live, as they happened, by agents and supervisors. The Horowitz report quoted liberally from transcripts of the recordings...https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...trump-campaign
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  12. #32
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    Re: Trump Orders Barr to Investigate the Investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    The FBI agents were lying. Horowitz just couldn't prove it.
    Argument from ignorance, again.

    ---------- Post added at 10:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    YES, the FBI Spied on the Trump Campaign
    A lie.

    Horowitz notes that while the FBI used an informant and an undercover agent in meetings with ex-campaign advisers Carter Page and George Papadopoulos, the agency did not give any direction for the informant to infiltrate the campaign. The inspector general reportedly disproves assertions that Joseph Mifsud, a professor who promised political dirt to Papadopoulos, was an FBI informant. Horowitz also found that agency leaders did not take politically motivated actions while pursuing a wiretap on Page, which agents obtained after Page had officially left the campaign.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  13. #33
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    Re: Trump Orders Barr to Investigate the Investigation

    You call it what you want, but we both know the truth. FBI agents and a staff attorney were targeting Trump's people, trying to find dirt. They lied and distorted facts in their warrant applications and reports to keep the operation going.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  14. #34
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    Re: Trump Orders Barr to Investigate the Investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You call it what you want, but we both know the truth. FBI agents and a staff attorney were targeting Trump's people, trying to find dirt. They lied and distorted facts in their warrant applications and reports to keep the operation going.
    Well, I know the truth as is evidenced through the investigation. You're gullible and believe whatever your master tells you.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  15. #35
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    Re: Trump Orders Barr to Investigate the Investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Well, I know the truth as is evidenced through the investigation. You're gullible and believe whatever your master tells you.
    Says the guy who no longer writes arguments for himself, and never much did anyway.

    ---------- Post added at 09:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Argument from ignorance, again.
    You keep claiming that, without any elaboration. Unless you can explain convincingly, your claim will be ignored.

    Consider a similar hypothetical situation:

    The FBI sees a lot of suspicious financial activity for a certain business. They suspect it is laundering money. The owners deny it, make excuses for some suspicious transactions, and have no explanation for others. But the FBI just can't quite get the evidence to prosecute. Should the FBI regard the business owners as completely innocent and forget about it? Have they been exonerated? If the FBI agents say privately that they just know that the business and owners are dirty, would you describe them as arguing from ignorance? Hardly. Failure to come up with hard evidence is not exoneration.

    Suspecting that FBI agents are dirty, and saying they are scum for conducting a campaign of spying on the Trump campaign is not arguing from innocence. It is making inferences about motivation from what is actually known about the actions those agents took. They have not been exonerated, and they certainly do look dirty.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  16. #36
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    Re: Trump Orders Barr to Investigate the Investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Says the guy who no longer writes arguments for himself, and never much did anyway.
    Enough to smear what was left of you all over the board on numerous occasions.

    ---------- Post added at 12:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:42 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    You keep claiming that, without any elaboration. Unless you can explain convincingly, your claim will be ignored.
    You couldn't ignore me if you tried.

    ---------- Post added at 12:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:43 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    They have not been exonerated, and they certainly do look dirty.
    Not to the IG. He said he didn't know. You drew a conclusion which is an argument from ignorance.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  17. #37
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    Re: Trump Orders Barr to Investigate the Investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Enough to smear what was left of you all over the board on numerous occasions.
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You really believe this, I'm sure. Too effing funny.

    And you probably think the rest of your post is an actual rebuttal to my argument.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  18. #38
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    Re: Trump Orders Barr to Investigate the Investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You really believe this, I'm sure. Too effing funny.

    And you probably think the rest of your post is an actual rebuttal to my argument.
    It sure is.

    Slapping you around never gets old. My hand is a bit sore but I've got plenty of ice.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

 

 
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