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  1. #1
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    Mind Trapped by: Ask a Vaccine Hesitant anything.

    So vaccine's have been in the public eye again. Seeing a lot of stuff on face-book related to the New York measles outbreak.
    Anyway, just thought I would open the floor to questions on the topic if anyone was interested.
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Ask a Vaccine Hesitant anything.

    Well, I guess the first question would be, what are your thoughts and opinions on vaccines?

    Personally, I think that if a disease is very contagious and an effective vaccine exists for it, then it is for the social good for everyone to try and be vaccinated against it.
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  4. #3
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Ask a Vaccine Hesitant anything.

    My first concern is that because vaccination is a medical procedure, this is inherently a discussion about public good vs personal rights.

    So the public good would have to be very compelling to overcome that. Especially in the instance of forced vaccinations.

    My second concern is that it isn't very well evidenced that such a thing would actually effect the public good. So while the "idea" may be good, I don't think the facts support it.
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  6. #4
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Ask a Vaccine Hesitant anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    My first concern is that because vaccination is a medical procedure, this is inherently a discussion about public good vs personal rights.

    So the public good would have to be very compelling to overcome that. Especially in the instance of forced vaccinations.
    What threshold do you think is compelling enough?

    My second concern is that it isn't very well evidenced that such a thing would actually effect the public good. So while the "idea" may be good, I don't think the facts support it.
    What do you think is the best evidence that Vaccines are in the public interest?
    Why do you not find that evidence compelling?
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  7. #5
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Ask a Vaccine Hesitant anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by sig
    What threshold do you think is compelling enough?
    I think the question is a little vague. The reason is because there are two different considerations and I'm not certain which one you are referring to.
    So I'll explain and answer as best I can. let me know if I miss.

    The first threshold would be for personal application. As In, what is the threshold for me to feel the need to vaccinate myself.
    The second threshold would be to justify the imposition of the above on another person, specifically against their wishes.

    So, for example the flu shot. If I were personally prone to catching the flu(IE at risk), and the vaccine was shown effective(especially in myself), and any negative side effects were at a risk level I felt comfortable accepting, then that would be sufficient threshold.
    However, the above would not be sufficient to compel me to force that decision on others.

    So the bar would be a lot higher specifically in threat level. The flu simply isn't dangerous enough to warrant imposing a view on others. I'm not settled on what would reach that level, but am skeptical of anything reaching it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    What do you think is the best evidence that Vaccines are in the public interest?
    I'm a layman on the topic, so the best "evidence" is the professional opinion on the topic. It seems that most Dr's would testify that it is in the public's best interest. As a general rule,this is pretty sufficient evidence, and it was all the evidence I needed when I was first married and had my first kid.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Why do you not find that evidence compelling?
    Mostly because my family didn't live "healthy" until we stopped going to the Dr and following their advice.
    At it's heart its a credibility problem. The professionals say a lot of stuff that is objectively false, and some stuff that is down right scary.
    There is one other thing... but I got to go (edit)
    O.k. never mind. The other thing is a conflict of interest. In that what is said, and deemed to be the facts, are determined by those that are financially motivated, and also have major credibility issues.


    So the objectively false stuff would be things like "Vaccines are safe and effective for everyone".
    That is objectively false.

    Something that is down right scary is something like "It is safe for a person to receive 1000 vaccines".
    It isn't scary because it is "false", it is scary because .. what would that look like? Take your child to the Dr every week to get 10 shots at a time?
    That is actual torture man. Which relevantly, the medical community will torture you in the literal sense of the word, for "public good" or in the name of your own good.
    *story* I learned this when my friend took their child to the hospital, and they tried to find a vain for an IV for like an hour and half. Think about what that means. They stuck this child over and over for an hour and a half. The anesthesiologist was called, stuck the baby once, and refused to stick it again. Finally the parents were prompted to ask "what will you do if you can't get it?", and they replied "give the child a bottle". Because it was in the name of an "I.V.".
    Point is, this is a blind spot for the medical community, and it is scary.
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  8. #6
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Ask a Vaccine Hesitant anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    The second threshold would be to justify the imposition of the above on another person, specifically against their wishes.
    This is the one I'm interested in. I might be mildly curious about your own decision making, but it's the public policy I think is worthy of debate.

    I'm a layman on the topic, so the best "evidence" is the professional opinion on the topic. It seems that most Dr's would testify that it is in the public's best interest. As a general rule,this is pretty sufficient evidence, and it was all the evidence I needed when I was first married and had my first kid.
    OK, that seems very reasonable.

    Mostly because my family didn't live "healthy" until we stopped going to the Dr and following their advice.
    At it's heart its a credibility problem. The professionals say a lot of stuff that is objectively false, and some stuff that is down right scary.
    There is one other thing... but I got to go (edit)
    O.k. never mind. The other thing is a conflict of interest. In that what is said, and deemed to be the facts, are determined by those that are financially motivated, and also have major credibility issues.
    I want to point out that these reasons are prone to the Genetic Fallacy. That's a deductive fallacy, and you may not be making a deductive decision, but it should put some caution on using these reasons to make a conclusion.

    I'd point out that when it comes to financial incentives, everyone has them. The "alternative" medicine world is full of financial incentives to create distrust in science-based medicine to promote their own products. So even if you consider it as a reason to be distrustful, it should probably be applied equally across the range of anyone who makes a living selling health based products or advice.

    So the objectively false stuff would be things like "Vaccines are safe and effective for everyone".
    That is objectively false.
    Do you know of anyone making this specific claim? I think it is something of a strawman. Every state in America has exceptions for medical reasons. If you can show that you have an adverse reaction to them or other valid reason, you don't have to get them. Don't you think this demonstrates that it is not claimed to be safe for everyone?

    Something that is downright scary is something like "It is safe for a person to receive 1000 vaccines".
    Is this something anyone seriously proposes to do?
    Is the fact that you find it scary of significance to its accuracy?

    It isn't scary because it is "false", it is scary because .. what would that look like? Take your child to the Dr every week to get 10 shots at a time?
    That is actual torture man.
    Given that no one does this, why is it relevant?

    Which relevantly, the medical community will torture you in the literal sense of the word, for "public good" or in the name of your own good.
    *story* I learned this when my friend took their child to the hospital, and they tried to find a vain for an IV for like an hour and half. Think about what that means. They stuck this child over and over for an hour and a half. The anesthesiologist was called, stuck the baby once, and refused to stick it again. Finally the parents were prompted to ask "what will you do if you can't get it?", and they replied "give the child a bottle". Because it was in the name of an "I.V.".
    Point is, this is a blind spot for the medical community, and it is scary.
    While I appreciate the response, this has little to do with vaccination. It is simply your fear of medical practices and being poked. When they do a heart bypass they used to cut your chest open, spread it with a spanner, slice open your heart and sew it back together. Horrific in the extreme, but it can save your life. Also, it has little to do with vaccination.

    So I want to ask again, what do you think is the best evidence that vaccinations are in the public interest?
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  9. #7
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Ask a Vaccine Hesitant anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    This is the one I'm interested in. I might be mildly curious about your own decision making, but it's the public policy I think is worthy of debate.
    Certainly. I think there is a lot of grey area where certain lines are not very clear except maybe on the extremes.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    OK, that seems very reasonable.
    Thanks.. we thought we were being reasonable

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    I want to point out that these reasons are prone to the Genetic Fallacy. That's a deductive fallacy, and you may not be making a deductive decision, but it should put some caution on using these reasons to make a conclusion.
    This is very true. Just because someone is making money on something, doesn't mean they are dishonest, or what they are saying is false.
    I think however that we would be foolish to think that people won't lie for a billion dollars though. So it is more about judging human nature and other humans.
    In this case human authorites.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    I'd point out that when it comes to financial incentives, everyone has them. The "alternative" medicine world is full of financial incentives to create distrust in science-based medicine to promote their own products. So even if you consider it as a reason to be distrustful, it should probably be applied equally across the range of anyone who makes a living selling health based products or advice.
    I don't think the two sides are equal in comparison. I mean, your point is valid if someone is making tones of money, then what I said should be applied equally.
    What I mean is that the "authorities" on both sides are very different in structure. What you find on the side the medical community is very much a top down sort of information source.
    Where as for the vaccine hesitant side... it isn't structured like that at all, and instead you see people losing money, not making it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Do you know of anyone making this specific claim?
    If you ask your personal Dr, he will say that vaccines are "safe and effective", without adding any caviot of "except for some people" etc.
    It is my impression that this is THE MOST common way of stating it.

    Quick google...
    https://hub.jhu.edu/2017/01/11/vacci...health-expert/
    Headline...
    "The science is clear: Vaccines are safe, effective, and do not cause autism"

    Is it unreasonable to think they are implying "for everyone"? Isn't that the messag being sent on purpose?

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    I think it is something of a strawman. Every state in America has exceptions for medical reasons. If you can show that you have an adverse reaction to them or other valid reason, you don't have to get them. Don't you think this demonstrates that it is not claimed to be safe for everyone?
    To the extent that it is a straw-man, it is a creation of the advertising arm of the medical community. (not that there is a specific advertising arm,but it most certainly is the message being sent).

    No, it is not evidnece that authorities on the matter are not actually stating the demonstrable untruth. What it is evidence of, is that when it is stated, it is objectivly false.

    Wouldn't you agree?

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Is this something anyone seriously proposes to do?
    Is the fact that you find it scary of significance to its accuracy?
    What it demonstraites is a lack of a limiting principle.
    For example, they are working on some 200 more vaccines, and I don't hear

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    Given that no one does this, why is it relevant?
    Well, they give 6 at a time now, and the current answer to a parents concern is for them to leave the room.
    Parents concerned with multiple shots are pushed back upon in simple efforts of rescheduling.
    So.. it seems very relevant and a growing problem.
    Going back to our own experience, when my wife saw 4 shots that was too much. She was told to leave the room.

    So.. I think it is relevant.


    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    While I appreciate the response, this has little to do with vaccination. It is simply your fear of medical practices and being poked. When they do a heart bypass they used to cut your chest open, spread it with a spanner, slice open your heart and sew it back together. Horrific in the extreme, but it can save your life. Also, it has little to do with vaccination.
    I disagree. My example is directly related to vaccinations as they are applied. to ignore the reality of having to be stuck with a needle, and the fact that such an act if done enough can be torture, is to be blind to a relvant aspect and a present concern to parents.
    A concern that shouldn't be discarded as worthless.

    I get stuck twice a week, and it is not fun. I don't have a "fear" of it.. or maybe I'm just brave?
    But it isn't fun, and at some point doing that to a person is actual torture.
    Your example isn't similar at all. unless you remove anistisia. In which case could you argue to FORCE the procedure on anyone?
    I think dismissing this point as simply being afraid of medical practice.. is foolish and if applied to others is dangerous.

    I would forward, it is that exact attitude that lead to the example I gave.

    But let me bring it back around. This was all a point about credibilty. Specifically they say things that are scary in their application.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    So I want to ask again, what do you think is the best evidence that vaccinations are in the public interest?
    I'm confused.. I previously answered this way.
    Quote Originally Posted by MT
    I'm a layman on the topic, so the best "evidence" is the professional opinion on the topic. It seems that most Dr's would testify that it is in the public's best interest. As a general rule,this is pretty sufficient evidence, and it was all the evidence I needed when I was first married and had my first kid.
    What is insufficient about that answer?
    I would go further and ask.. is that significantly different than the information a Dr uses to give me the advice?
    IE are you expecting me to do something more than a typical Dr?
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  10. #8
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Ask a Vaccine Hesitant anything.

    Based on your answers to my questions I have come to think the following....

    1. You / your wife are afraid of being poked with needles or afraid of having your children poked with needles.

    2. You don't trust medical science all that much.

    3. You don't understand medical science all that much.

    4. You've done very little reading on the history and function of vaccines.

    I have a little sympathy for #2, a tiny bit for #1, but overall I'm not interested enough to ask further questions of your views. I'd suggest you educate yourself on the topic of vaccines, their place in medical history, and the medical business prior to their invention.
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  11. #9
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Ask a Vaccine Hesitant anything.

    Thanks for participing.
    I don't think your questions justify the conclusions of 3 and 4.
    I think you have mistaken " don't like/ don't want too many" with " afraid of" in regards to #1
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Ask a Vaccine Hesitant anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Thanks for participing.
    I don't think your questions justify the conclusions of 3 and 4.
    I think you have mistaken " don't like/ don't want too many" with " afraid of" in regards to #1
    You're very welcome.

    I want to avoid too much direct argument, but let me explain some of why I came to those conclusions.

    For #3: I asked twice what you thought was the strongest evidence. Your reply was..
    I'm a layman on the topic, so the best "evidence" is the professional opinion on the topic.
    A layman is someone who doesn't have professional knowledge. While we are both laymen in this regard, you further say that the evidence is other peoples opinions. This means that you are not interested in the source material, only in other conclusions. But you at the same time doubt their conclusions, not because they are ignorant, but because you simply don't trust their motives. Presumably, if you had researched the subject, even as a layman, you could explain the evidence available. Since you distrust others interpretation, you could provide that yourself. Since you don't I'm left to presume you are simply ignorant on the subject.

    As to fear, let me outline some words you used in your answers on the subject...
    torture (twice), down right scary (twice), it is scary (twice), when my wife saw 4 shots that was too much

    To me, that kind of rhetoric smacks of appealing to fear, and people tend to appeal to what they themselves feel. I understand you don't cower at getting a shot, but we often fear for our children what we don't fear for ourselves. The overall position seems steeped with fear and distrust, if there is some cold reason in it, I'm not sure where to find it.

    If you don't want to seem afraid, don't use that kind of language so much. I know your not really trying to make an argument here, but if you were, I'd stick with language like "unnecessary risks" or "over-medication" or something along these lines rather than "torture" and "down right scary"
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  13. #11
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Ask a Vaccine Hesitant anything.

    On evidence and your assumptions.
    I felt that your question was broken. It assumed that there was any good evidence, or that having seen a lot of evidence one would find a lot of evidence that was better than the basic appeal to authority I pointed out.
    That has not been what I have found. Every study pointed too as support that I have seen and investigated and had any critical examination of, has been fundeme tally flawed (and I haven't seen them all). So I don't consider them to be the best evidence.

    Now in a thread called ask anything, you can make whatever assumptions you like, but your questions didn't lead to that conclusion.

    For my part, I am trying to stick to answering the questions, if you don't ask for what I thought was the most compelling evidence against.. then .. I wasn't going to lead the conversation.


    --- fear---
    Here again I think you just lost context of what I was saying. I said they say scary things and gave an example.
    If you think that we decided not to vaccinate because we are afraid of needles... I think you have a very wrong impression and a few questions could illuminate that. However.. if your assume ignorance.. then I grant it makes sense.

    ---
    The very first event that caused us to START questioning drs and vaccines, is their hostility and unwillingness to bend on something as simple as sceduling shots.
    Yes my wife did freak out about there being 4 needles about to stick our child. That was partly due to our expectation of one or two. It did make us mad. But what it showed and taught us is a complete disregard for our authority over our kids and our roll as parents. Their answered of " you can leave the room" was the wrong answer.
    That however started our investigation.. it was t the end. The more we learned, the more we found the medical community unreasonable and illogical that the pushback was never untellextual but rather authoritative is part of the reason I offer that as the best evidence. It is the only evidence a vast amount of people ever use to make the decision. Only once the source is questioned can you really start to investigate critically.


    --- fi ding cold reason--
    I just don't think your questions were ones that were going to lead to that end. But your not a reporter and whatever you are curious about.. that is totally legit.

    I don't fault you on some of the impression because it is part of the story... It just isn't the whole story.

    For examole, Cali has a/had a program where If you wanted to take an exemption you had to take an education class on the topic. The program had thousands of people go through it, listening to all the best the medical field had to offer. How many people you think changed their minds and didn't take the exemption after?
    The answer was zero.
    So should we just assume they were all emotionally driven? Driven by fear? Certainly they had some of those feelings. But I think more like a person. Who escaped a communist country fears communism. Basically only people who have had something actually occured, hard evidence that Trump's any words you can say. Will you get the kind of grass roots unweavering conviction as we see in the example.

    So am I afraid of needles and that has driven our decision? As I said I get stuck twice a week.
    Your opinion is yours to have. I just wanted to try and answer any questions I could.
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  14. #12
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Ask a Vaccine Hesitant anything.

    After your explanation, my perception remains unchanged. I think your reasons for your view are based on emotional responses to western medicine rather than reason and knowledge and as a result, they don't hold much further interest to me.
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    Re: Mind Trapped by: Ask a Vaccine Hesitant anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIG
    After your explanation, my perception remains unchanged. I think your reasons for your view are based on emotional responses to western medicine rather than reason and knowledge and as a result, they don't hold much further interest to me.
    Cool. I still don't think your questions merit that conclusion.

    In other news.
    Apparently there haven't been any quality control studies done on vaccinations by the gov, as was required by the law which exempt vaccines manufacturers from lawsuits.
    https://icandecide.org/wp-content/up...der%20copy.pdf


    That doesn't instill me with an educated sense of assurance.
    To serve man.

 

 

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