San Junipero

[CowboyX]

The title of this thread refers to an episode of Black Mirror in which the elderly are allowed to visit a simulated reality ("virtual" reality) and then, at the time of their death, they may choose to stay or die naturally.

Basically, it brings up the question of "would you?" and concerns the metaphysical as well as practical aspects, such as what if you had a loved one you had already died in the regular manner.

For me? Hell yes. Sign me up. I'd go inside the mattrix or even something that looked like Super Mario Brothers. I 'd even go into Zork.

The extension of human the human body is only going to be taken so far and then there's the problem of accidents and terrible illnesses. Imagine a young child with incurable cancer being able to live their lives out amongst those who love them.

Further, it's looking like anything like "warp drive" or matter-energy transport is probably not going to happen. Huge, multi-generational starships or decades-long "hypersleep" are similarly looking as not feasible. But if one were living in a "virtual" reality as a piece of code would enable you to be "beamed" at the speed of light throughout the galaxy. Further, you'd be able to go to sleep for the duration. 10 million light years? No problem.

Inner space, not outer space (which the more we look the more inhospitable to the human body we find it is), will be the next big step for us and fiction is only beginning to address it.

[Sigfried]

I'd probably be happy to become one of the cyber-undead vs oblivion.

[MindTrap028]

There was a book that dealt with this, where people would be uploaded into "the bin", and you could visit but if you stayed too long your body could die and you would be stuck. Can't recall the title for the life of me.

So should I join in? Well if it was real yea, just like I would love a light saber.

Do I think this science fiction has any hope at being reality. No, not at all. At best you are talking about a simulation of yourself. Which is by definition not you. I don't see any difference to being actually dead while a copy exists, or not having a copy and still being dead.

So if the sci-fi version was just a copy, then I would say no.

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There was a book that dealt with this, where people would be uploaded into "the bin", and you could visit but if you stayed too long your body could die and you would be stuck. Can't recall the title for the life of me.

So should I join in? Well if it was real yea, just like I would love a light saber.

Do I think this science fiction has any hope at being reality. No, not at all. At best you are talking about a simulation of yourself. Which is by definition not you. I don't see any difference to being actually dead while a copy exists, or not having a copy and still being dead.

So if the sci-fi version was just a copy, then I would say no.

[CowboyX]

I'd probably be happy to become one of the cyber-undead vs oblivion.

You could probably choose to die or "unplug" at some distant time. In habit a robot body if you wanted to interact with the "real" world.

[Belthazor]

The title of this thread refers to an episode of Black Mirror in which the elderly are allowed to visit a simulated reality ("virtual" reality) and then, at the time of their death, they may choose to stay or die naturally.

Basically, it brings up the question of "would you?" and concerns the metaphysical as well as practical aspects, such as what if you had a loved one you had already died in the regular manner.

For me? Hell yes. Sign me up. I'd go inside the mattrix or even something that looked like Super Mario Brothers. I 'd even go into Zork.

The extension of human the human body is only going to be taken so far and then there's the problem of accidents and terrible illnesses. Imagine a young child with incurable cancer being able to live their lives out amongst those who love them.

Further, it's looking like anything like "warp drive" or matter-energy transport is probably not going to happen. Huge, multi-generational starships or decades-long "hypersleep" are similarly looking as not feasible. But if one were living in a "virtual" reality as a piece of code would enable you to be "beamed" at the speed of light throughout the galaxy. Further, you'd be able to go to sleep for the duration. 10 million light years? No problem.

Inner space, not outer space (which the more we look the more inhospitable to the human body we find it is), will be the next big step for us and fiction is only beginning to address it.

If a person was able to "download" themselves into a computer, that would imply the mind and brain are two separate entities, an intriguing if not likely possibility.

However, if it were possible, I would give it a whirl
Though,
1. I don't know how it could be known that you actually were "downloaded" or not.
2. You are trusting that some one that still exists is going to keep the simulation running (electricity, the computers themselves and the programming) and not pervert it into some nightmare situation..

[CowboyX]

If a person was able to "download" themselves into a computer, that would imply the mind and brain are two separate entities, an intriguing if not likely possibility.

The mind is the product of the brain and we've pondered the possibility of creating artificial minds/intelligence. That doesn't seem too far fetched. How much further would we have to go to use the same hardware to support an already existing mind?

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2. You are trusting that some one that still exists is going to keep the simulation running (electricity, the computers themselves and the programming) and not pervert it into some nightmare situation..

Right, in the episode you are basically put on a sort of thumb drive. Let's say like a regular thumb drive you could be unplugged without any damage. But yes, I agree, there would probably be all types of new laws and safeguards needed. People inside would have to have recognized rights and responsibilities.

Also, the nightmare situation was addressed in another episode "USS Callister" where a guy captured people and played with them. So yes, possible.

[mican333]

A friend of mine who lived in Las Vegas for a few years said "Vegas is a nice place to visit but you wouldn't want to live there". I think ultimately San Junipero, or any virtual world, would be the same.

The reason is that the architect of any virtual world is a significantly less capable architect of the world that we live in now (whether we call the architect "God" or "nature" or whatever) and no matter how cool the virtual world is, the artificially will become quite noticeable after a while and would likely become more annoying as time goes on and perhaps even maddening. It might not even be something directly noticeable and it's more of a subconscious thing but I think that eventually one would find a virtual world very unsatisfying.

So going back to the San Junipero scenario. what if one can live there permanently after death? And to leave SJ is to commit suicide (since you no longer have access to the "real world"). So if living in SJ becomes unbearable (for reasons explained) but one won't leave because they don't want to die, there would be some pretty messed-up people living there.

[CowboyX]

The reason is that the architect of any virtual world is a significantly less capable architect of the world that we live in now (whether we call the architect "God" or "nature" or whatever) and no matter how cool the virtual world is, the artificially will become quite noticeable after a while and would likely become more annoying as time goes on and perhaps even maddening. It might not even be something directly noticeable and it's more of a subconscious thing but I think that eventually one would find a virtual world very unsatisfying.

So that's kind of like a "Mattrix" thing where one is tricked or trying to trick oneself into believing it is real?

Imagine though, you could go to sleep for 1000 years, not even feel a thing, and wake up in a more advanced future. Or, like I suggested, have your signal broadcast into space to be picked up by robotic systems sent to planets millions of light-years away.

[Belthazor]

The mind is the product of the brain and we've pondered the possibility of creating artificial minds/intelligence. That doesn't seem too far fetched.

I think you will find most religious people consider thoughts in the domain of a "soul" not the physical brain (not that I am forwarding that is what I believe). There is also considerable scientific study to determine if the mind/brain are the same entity...

Creating software that can learn and talk with us etc is one thing.
Duplicating your exact "thought processes" (all the electro-chemical stuff that makes you, you!) is an entirely different thing. For instance, I used to be pretty liberal, now not so much. How would a computer duplicate this?
It would have to be person specific since we are all unique.

How much further would we have to go to use the same hardware to support an already existing mind?

The human brain is full of hormones, chemicals, virus' and all kinds of stuff that make up our thoughts. How could a machine duplicate this progression of my life? How would it know what/who you will be in twenty years? Our experiences from the past influence our actions in the future, how could a machine know what you would do in a given situation?

Right, in the episode you are basically put on a sort of thumb drive. Let's say like a regular thumb drive you could be unplugged without any damage. But yes, I agree, there would probably be all types of new laws and safeguards needed. People inside would have to have recognized rights and responsibilities.

Also, the nightmare situation was addressed in another episode "USS Callister" where a guy captured people and played with them. So yes, possible.

Well, I guess as long as we let the Donald (or gov't in general) take responsibility, we would have no worries that this technology could be used for nefarious purposes

[CowboyX]

The human brain is full of hormones, chemicals, virus' and all kinds of stuff that make up our thoughts. How could a machine duplicate this progression of my life?

I'm not saying it would be easy, maybe even not the same. Perhaps you'd choose to be at a certain period in your life...say 23 years old? Sounds good to me. No dementia, alzheimers, or other afflictions of the brain. Not to mention the body.

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Well, I guess as long as we let the Donald (or gov't in general) take responsibility, we would have no worries that this technology could be used for nefarious purposes

hmm, how would that be different from now? (Or the great expanse of human history we claim to learn from)

[Belthazor]

I'm not saying it would be easy, maybe even not the same.

The problem here is:
that wouldn't be "you" in any meaningful way. No real difference than being dead.

hmm, how would that be different from now? (Or the great expanse of human history we claim to learn from)

Gov't doesn't currently have the ability to affect every single aspect of your existence. In your scenario, they would, and since you would be nothing but an electrical signal, you really have no way to appeal to any living person for help (should you require it)...

[CowboyX]

The problem here is:
that wouldn't be "you" in any meaningful way. No real difference than being dead.

You're not "you" from one day to the next either. You're certainly not the same you as when you were born. I don't get how it wouldn't be different from being dead. How do you figure?

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Gov't doesn't currently have the ability to affect every single aspect of your existence.

I'd have thought you would say they do.

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In your scenario, they would, and since you would be nothing but an electrical signal, you really have no way to appeal to any living person for help (should you require it)...

You could talk to people, right? Inhabit any type of hardware - even robots. So a population of electronic signals would have to go through some type of process where their rights are acknowledged. There could even be conflict - wars - between those on the inside and those still alive.

[Belthazor]

You're not "you" from one day to the next either. You're certainly not the same you as when you were born. I don't get how it wouldn't be different from being dead. How do you figure?

I don't think I agree, however:
what do you think is actually being "downloaded" into the computer in the first place. If your brain is really you there is no way to "take you out" of your brain. At best a computer could simulate a person, but in a generic sense, not a specific person.

Memories (for instance) are not like a picture (as most people assume). One part of the brain will store texture, one colors, one shapes, etc. The brain assembles all those pieces each time something is remembered (one of the reasons memory is very fallible).

Even if you could "download" some ones memories, the person in question would still wake up in his brain/body not a computer.
I don't see how this could work unless the human mind and brain are separate entities. Otherwise, all you could do was "scan" a brain to duplicate it's current functions. Once duplicated that still would not "take" a person out of their brain and put them into a virtual world.

I'd have thought you would say they do.

Another time assuming all who are not liberal fit the same mold. This point is keeping you from understanding people that may not agree with you.

You could talk to people, right?

No, only if whoever was in control allowed it.

Inhabit any type of hardware - even robots. So a population of electronic signals would have to go through some type of process where their rights are acknowledged.

Peoples rights are violated everyday by those in authority now, in the real world. It would be much easier to do in a virtual world, and since no "actual human" was/would be injured, the penalties for doing so would likely be lighter.

There could even be conflict - wars - between those on the inside and those still alive.

How so? Those inside are at the mercy of those that run the system

[CowboyX]

what do you think is actually being "downloaded" into the computer in the first place. If your brain is really you there is no way to "take you out" of your brain. At best a computer could simulate a person, but in a generic sense, not a specific person.

I think what would be downloaded is your mind - the product of your brain. Why do you think they couldn't copy a specific person? Further, for the sake of argument let's assume they could.

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Memories (for instance) are not like a picture (as most people assume). One part of the brain will store texture, one colors, one shapes, etc. The brain assembles all those pieces each time something is remembered (one of the reasons memory is very fallible).

Even if you could "download" some ones memories, the person in question would still wake up in his brain/body not a computer.
I don't see how this could work unless the human mind and brain are separate entities. Otherwise, all you could do was "scan" a brain to duplicate it's current functions. Once duplicated that still would not "take" a person out of their brain and put them into a virtual world.

How is the memory example not how a computer could possibly do the same thing - storing audio and video separately. GIS system store vast amounts of data of all kinds that are brought together in the mother program to produce results. Sure, more difficult and complex in this case but it does seem plausible.

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Even if you could "download" some ones memories, the person in question would still wake up in his brain/body not a computer.
I don't see how this could work unless the human mind and brain are separate entities. Otherwise, all you could do was "scan" a brain to duplicate it's current functions. Once duplicated that still would not "take" a person out of their brain and put them into a virtual world.

What if they died after the procedure?

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No, only if whoever was in control allowed it.

Who says that flesh bound humans would be in control?



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Peoples rights are violated everyday by those in authority now, in the real world. It would be much easier to do in a virtual world, and since no "actual human" was/would be injured, the penalties for doing so would likely be lighter.

How so? Those inside are at the mercy of those that run the system

Right, and people who are abused have a way of going about ending it or making sure it doesn't happen again. They secure their rights through revolution, legal means, arming themselves, etc. Wouldn't those on the inside want to "run the system"?

I imagine there would definitely be a push to extend human rights to those inside. Do you think they deserve them?

[Belthazor]

I think what would be downloaded is your mind - the product of your brain. Why do you think they couldn't copy a specific person?

Because if the mind is a "product of the brain" there is nothing to download (save memories) because the brain creates "you". There would be no you without it.
IOW, if the mind/consciousness were separate from the brain, I don't see as much if an issue. The computer is just another "vessel" to hold your consciousness.

Further, for the sake of argument let's assume they could.

Ok, I will generally refrain from comments that question the concept ever being possible after this post.

How is the memory example not how a computer could possibly do the same thing - storing audio and video separately. GIS system store vast amounts of data of all kinds that are brought together in the mother program to produce results. Sure, more difficult and complex in this case but it does seem plausible.[COLOR="Silver"]

Sure, let's say we could get a computer to copy memories. Now we can go direct from your memories to a computer for storage.
How is this any different than a DVD of your life (for instance)? There is no way this is your mind/consciousness. It could be accurate and vivid but not you.
It is just recording your thoughts, not capable of making your same thoughts, and even if it could duplicate your brain activity completely, how would this get your mind/consciousness into the program?
Your mind would still be in your brain and the computer duplicating your thoughts watching you watch it...

What if they died after the procedure?

This would change nothing unless you are proposing the mind leaving the brain looking for a vessel to reside in when the body died.
This would be a separate mind and brain scenario though.

Who says that flesh bound humans would be in control?

Because the hardware, electricity etc has to be done by some one who isn't living inside a computer.

Right, and people who are abused have a way of going about ending it

Because they are alive and other alive people offer help. No other reason.

I imagine there would definitely be a push to extend human rights to those inside. Do you think they deserve them?

If we are going to grant that it is even possible, ya, they would need laws/rights/etc. Free people can't "live" together without them.

[CowboyX]

Because if the mind is a "product of the brain" there is nothing to download (save memories) because the brain creates "you". There would be no you without it.
IOW, if the mind/consciousness were separate from the brain, I don't see as much if an issue. The computer is just another "vessel" to hold your consciousness.

Interesting point, but if we had a substitute for the brain it wouldn't be a problem.

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Sure, let's say we could get a computer to copy memories. Now we can go direct from your memories to a computer for storage.
How is this any different than a DVD of your life (for instance)? There is no way this is your mind/consciousness. It could be accurate and vivid but not you.
It is just recording your thoughts, not capable of making your same thoughts, and even if it could duplicate your brain activity completely, how would this get your mind/consciousness into the program?
Your mind would still be in your brain and the computer duplicating your thoughts watching you watch it...

So you're saying a perfect copy of your mind wouldn't be able to generate new thoughts?

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Because the hardware, electricity etc has to be done by some one who isn't living inside a computer.

Why? It can be done robotically. Let's say they could make very good robots too that you could jump in and out of...kind of like that Bruce Willis movie..."Surrogates".

[Belthazor]

Interesting point, but if we had a substitute for the brain it wouldn't be a problem.

Except your brain (per you) creates you. Another brain could clone you, but it still would not be "you"!

Having a "place" for your mind to go if it could leave your brain does not solve the issue of getting your mind out of your brain (since you said the brain creates the mind).

So you're saying a perfect copy of your mind wouldn't be able to generate new thoughts?[COLOR="Silver"]

No, I', saying a computer copy of your brain would still not be "you". "You" would still reside in your own brain, not in the copy of your brain. There is no way to get "you" out of your brain since there is no "you" until your brain creates "you"...

Why? It can be done robotically. Let's say they could make very good robots too that you could jump in and out of...kind of like that Bruce Willis movie..."Surrogates".

[/QUOTE]

Sure robots could do a lot of it, if the "alive" people allowed it, as that would still be at their discretion...

[CowboyX]

Except your brain (per you) creates you. Another brain could clone you, but it still would not be "you"!

Having a "place" for your mind to go if it could leave your brain does not solve the issue of getting your mind out of your brain (since you said the brain creates the mind).

I'm not going to claim I have the technical solution needed. How would it not be "you", it's a perfect copy.

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No, I', saying a computer copy of your brain would still not be "you". "You" would still reside in your own brain, not in the copy of your brain. There is no way to get "you" out of your brain since there is no "you" until your brain creates "you"...

But it would be you. And how is that different from your cells constantly renewing and replacing themselves. You are always moving into the new "you".

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Sure robots could do a lot of it, if the "alive" people allowed it, as that would still be at their discretion...

Why would they have to allow it?

[MindTrap028]

I think "copy" is the wrong idea. The reason this trips up the example is because copying doesn't destroy the original. So if I copied your brain waves, and your still alive in your body, and another you would be alive in the computer(or whatever). Which means that by definition the copy isn't you.

However I'd you use the idea of a causal transfer. So whatever is causing you in the brain, is then transfered to effecting the construct of your brain in the computer.

[CowboyX]

I think "copy" is the wrong idea. The reason this trips up the example is because copying doesn't destroy the original. So if I copied your brain waves, and your still alive in your body, and another you would be alive in the computer(or whatever). Which means that by definition the copy isn't you.

However I'd you use the idea of a causal transfer. So whatever is causing you in the brain, is then transfered to effecting the construct of your brain in the computer.

It might not be the same you, technically, but it is a "you", just minus it's original physical body. Check out one of my favorite TNG episodes:



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In The Matrix, remember, Neo asks about his bloody lip and Morpheus replies that "your mind makes it real" and that if you die in the matrix your body dies - that the body cannot live without the mind. That's not really true is it? That's just some scifi universe rule, right?