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  1. #1
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    Amazon Fires - Manufactured Crisis by the Left

    Once again, Leftists and their supporters in the media claim a crisis exists, when it really doesn't, all to push their global warming agenda.

    The current number of fires in the Amazon are only a few percentage points higher than the ten-year average. Many of the fires are set by farmers to clear their own fields, not areas of virgin timber, and the there is absolutely no threat to the earth's oxygen supply due to the supposed "lungs of the earth" being on fire. It is just one more propaganda hoax from the American LEFT:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/michael.../#6254620c5bde

    https://www.heraldmailmedia.com/news...553d25776.html
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  2. #2
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    Re: Amazon Fires - Manufactured Crisis by the Left

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Once again, Leftists and their supporters in the media claim a crisis exists, when it really doesn't, all to push their global warming agenda.

    The current number of fires in the Amazon are only a few percentage points higher than the ten-year average. Many of the fires are set by farmers to clear their own fields, not areas of virgin timber, and the there is absolutely no threat to the earth's oxygen supply due to the supposed "lungs of the earth" being on fire. It is just one more propaganda hoax from the American LEFT:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/michael.../#6254620c5bde

    https://www.heraldmailmedia.com/news...553d25776.html
    Though I am not a fan of lobal warming/climate change and believe the most common argument for it is defeated as soon as they say something like:
    "climate needs to go back to what it was in the 1800's" specifically.

    The destruction of rain forests including the amazon is happening at an alarming rate:
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...y-destruction/
    "Pinning down exact numbers is nearly impossible, but most experts agree that we are losing upwards of 80,000 acres of tropical rainforest daily, and significantly degrading another 80,000 acres every day on top of that. Along with this loss and degradation, we are losing some 135 plant, animal and insect species every day—or some 50,000 species a year—as the forests fall."

    So I agree that ever since the Clinton's there is always a "crisis" that needs money (and probably a new gov't agency), but I also agree the Earth is not being managed very well for the long term.
    Problem is, gov't can't confiscate money from it's citizens/business' fast enough to solve all the problems.

    Maybe we should enlist Google or Facebook to take over where govt's can't/won't

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  4. #3
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    Re: Amazon Fires - Manufactured Crisis by the Left

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    "climate needs to go back to what it was in the 1800's" specifically.
    Who says that?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  5. #4
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    Re: Amazon Fires - Manufactured Crisis by the Left

    Belthazor, I don't deny that significant cutting of rain forest is happening, particularly in the Amazon. But I believe that the numbers you've quoted are grossly inflated, just as the severity of fires this year are greatly exaggerated. Activists on the left have absolutely no problem fabricating statistics when they think it is for a good cause. The information at this wiki page suggests that annual forest loss is about one-tenth of the figures you quoted. And compare the past decade to what came before. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defore...zon_rainforest You're not hearing that from the Left or their tools in the media, are you? There is no crisis.

    You're also probably not hearing about the very significant reforestation efforts that are being undertaken, because those stories don't fit the Left's agenda of keeping the supposed crisis alive and on people's minds. Reforestation occurs in countries when the countries become more stable politically and economically, and the people become more affluent. The peoples of South America are cutting some forests for timber production and export, and also to create farmland. That development and other economic growth will allow the people to become more prosperous. At some point not too far in the future, the rain forests will probably experience stability, and possibly a small net growth. That is what happens when countries become more affluent. The Southeastern United States, Ireland, and much of Europe are examples. Even China has begun reforestation projects because of increasing affluence. Again, there really is no huge deforestation crisis, in South America or world wide.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  6. #5
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    Re: Amazon Fires - Manufactured Crisis by the Left

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Belthazor, I don't deny that significant cutting of rain forest is happening, particularly in the Amazon. But I believe that the numbers you've quoted are grossly inflated, just as the severity of fires this year are greatly exaggerated. Activists on the left have absolutely no problem fabricating statistics when they think it is for a good cause. The information at this wiki page suggests that annual forest loss is about one-tenth of the figures you quoted. And compare the past decade to what came before. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defore...zon_rainforest You're not hearing that from the Left or their tools in the media, are you? There is no crisis.

    You're also probably not hearing about the very significant reforestation efforts that are being undertaken, because those stories don't fit the Left's agenda of keeping the supposed crisis alive and on people's minds. Reforestation occurs in countries when the countries become more stable politically and economically, and the people become more affluent. The peoples of South America are cutting some forests for timber production and export, and also to create farmland. That development and other economic growth will allow the people to become more prosperous. At some point not too far in the future, the rain forests will probably experience stability, and possibly a small net growth. That is what happens when countries become more affluent. The Southeastern United States, Ireland, and much of Europe are examples. Even China has begun reforestation projects because of increasing affluence. Again, there really is no huge deforestation crisis, in South America or world wide.
    I don't disagree with what you are saying, but its a lot like talking about pollution. We can show areas that are cleaning up and getting better and the opposite as well. Obviously it is difficult to get defendable numbers of lost forests.
    In China's case it seems even the Communist party is starting to understand their current course is just not sustainable.

    I will say, I totally agree that the more affluent, educated, with a stable representative govt a given population enjoys, the more likely that this issue will be addressed.

  7. #6
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    Re: Amazon Fires - Manufactured Crisis by the Left

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Belthazor, I don't deny that significant cutting of rain forest is happening, particularly in the Amazon. But I believe that the numbers you've quoted are grossly inflated, just as the severity of fires this year are greatly exaggerated. Activists on the left have absolutely no problem fabricating statistics when they think it is for a good cause. The information at this wiki page suggests that annual forest loss is about one-tenth of the figures you quoted. And compare the past decade to what came before. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defore...zon_rainforest You're not hearing that from the Left or their tools in the media, are you? There is no crisis.
    The article Balthazor shared was rainforests worldwide as where you are looking at the Amazon forest only.

    You're also probably not hearing about the very significant reforestation efforts that are being undertaken, because those stories don't fit the Left's agenda of keeping the supposed crisis alive and on people's minds. Reforestation occurs in countries when the countries become more stable politically and economically, and the people become more affluent. The peoples of South America are cutting some forests for timber production and export, and also to create farmland. That development and other economic growth will allow the people to become more prosperous. At some point not too far in the future, the rain forests will probably experience stability, and possibly a small net growth. That is what happens when countries become more affluent. The Southeastern United States, Ireland, and much of Europe are examples. Even China has begun reforestation projects because of increasing affluence. Again, there really is no huge deforestation crisis, in South America or world wide.
    There is some truth to that, but it's also a lot of speculation. Sometimes big economies just destroy natural habitat on a larger scale. We wiped out a good number of species in the US well before the modern era, and were still in process on that. Though we had some real revolutions in stewardship in the turn of the century and in the 1970s-1990s.

    I think the level of alarmism is overblown among many on the left. That's true. But, I also think the level of apathy is too high among many on the right.

    The alarmists are rarely correct but neither are deniers of science.

    As to de-forestation and re-forestation, the biodiversity loss in deforestation is not easily replaceable. Yes, you can grow new trees from seed. But the Amazon is home to a huge range of life and a lot of it can't simply be re-planted like a tree can. So simply re-planting, while nice, is not really addressing the concern for loss of habitat. (it does address the loss of carbon sinks etc.. for greenhouse gasses)

    I'd challenge you to try to blind yourself to left/right thinking on this issue and just look at it from a social and scientific standpoint.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  8. #7
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    Re: Amazon Fires - Manufactured Crisis by the Left

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    The article Balthazor shared was rainforests worldwide as where you are looking at the Amazon forest only.
    Good catch. it's also ten years out of date.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I think the level of alarmism is overblown among many on the left. That's true. But, I also think the level of apathy is too high among many on the right.
    People can't be passionate or even attentive to every issue worldwide. How may on the Left in the United States care about human rights in China and Cuba? None, from what I see. I support conservation efforts in the US, but what right do I have to tell people in South America what they can do with the land in their country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    The alarmists are rarely correct but neither are deniers of science.
    In this case, the alarmists are the deniers of science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    As to de-forestation and re-forestation, the biodiversity loss in deforestation is not easily replaceable. Yes, you can grow new trees from seed. But the Amazon is home to a huge range of life and a lot of it can't simply be re-planted like a tree can. So simply re-planting, while nice, is not really addressing the concern for loss of habitat. (it does address the loss of carbon sinks etc.. for greenhouse gasses)
    All true, but I have great skepticism at the numbers thrown about on the number of species threatened. Most of that just seems guesswork, including assumptions about possible extinction of many species that aren't even known to exist. And even if true, and some species are lost, exactly how does that diminish our lives or the world? Science tells us that species come and go continuously over time. So some depart a little faster. Why is that a great tragedy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I'd challenge you to try to blind yourself to left/right thinking on this issue and just look at it from a social and scientific standpoint.
    I'm capable of looking at the social, scientific and political aspects of the issue, all together, and see no reason to ignore the political aspects. I'd challenge you to blind yourself to the propaganda efforts, and ask yourself if your life is really all that diminished be not seeing Passenger Pigeons and Dodo Birds, or by having an Amazon rain forest one-third its original size.
    Last edited by evensaul; September 2nd, 2019 at 07:12 AM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

  9. #8
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    Re: Amazon Fires - Manufactured Crisis by the Left

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Good catch. it's also ten years out of date.
    "Good catch"????
    WTH?...


    I guess you two may not have noticed I said:
    "The destruction of rain forests including the amazon is happening at an alarming rate:"
    (emphasis mine!)


    That the article was ten yrs ago means little since I acknowledged:
    " Obviously it is difficult to get defendable numbers of lost forests"

  10. #9
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    Re: Amazon Fires - Manufactured Crisis by the Left

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    People can't be passionate or even attentive to every issue worldwide. How may on the Left in the United States care about human rights in China and Cuba? None, from what I see. I support conservation efforts in the US, but what right do I have to tell people in South America what they can do with the land in their country?
    1. There is a difference between not caring and actively denying and ridiculing. The right is mostly dead set in denying the basic observations much less the best way to react. There are exceptions.

    2. Many on the left are not fond of human rights in China and Cuba. Now Cuba does get off easy sometimes. China, on the other hand, is everyone's boogie man. Labor unions hate China for being a competitor that ignores many labor rights principles. International leftists hate China for its human rights abuses specifically. Human Rights Watch reports on them often for instance. Really, no one likes China politically in the US. They are seen almost universally as oppressive and as a competitor.

    In this case, the alarmists are the deniers of science.
    Alarmists extrapolate and sensationalize science, but they don't deny it. Climate change deniers deny science. That is why the are called deniers. There is a very well established scientific consensus that the atmosphere is warming due in part to human activity in the modern era, due mostly to the use of fossil fuels which release large quantities of CO2. CO2 is a well-known agent that retains heat in the atmosphere.

    Try to deny any of these hard facts.
    1. Humans produce a large quantity of C02
    2. C02 is an agent that retains heat in the atmosphere
    3. The levels of c02 in the atmosphere have risen over the past century
    4. Average atmospheric temperatures have risen in the past century

    All true, but I have great skepticism at the numbers thrown about on the number of species threatened.
    Is your skepticism based on having read the scientific literature on the subject or are you just being skeptical because you don't like the conclusion?

    Most of that just seems guesswork, including assumptions about possible extinction of many species that aren't even known to exist.
    We know for a hard fact many species have gone extinct. We know this because we have programs to count how many such animals exist in the wild each year. I'm not sure how you can attribute that to guesswork. As to unknown species, that is not what most counts are based on. There is some extrapolation to say that if we see many extinctions happening due to verifiable fact, and there are places on earth where we don't track them carefully, there may be extinction in those places too. You can be skeptical of those, but I see no reason you should be skeptical of the actual counting of animals to track their populations.

    And even if true, and some species are lost, exactly how does that diminish our lives or the world? Science tells us that species come and go continuously over time. So some depart a little faster. Why is that a great tragedy?
    1. Many of us inherently value animals and wildlife and think they are worth preserving for their intrinsic value.
    2. Every species lost is a lost opportunity to study and understand nature and the unique abilities and biology of those animals to better understand how life works.
    3. Every species lost is a lost opportunity for medicine. Many of our most important medical discoveries come from studying other animals and how they fight disease.
    4. We depend on many animals for our survival and if we endanger the interdependent natural world, we endanger ourselves in various ways.
    5. While there have been extinctions in the past, we cause them much faster than the natural environment does. We don't really know what impact that will have but we have many reasons to suspect it won't benefit us.

    I'm capable of looking at the social, scientific and political aspects of the issue, all together, and see no reason to ignore the political aspects. I'd challenge you to blind yourself to the propaganda efforts, and ask yourself if your life is really all that diminished be not seeing Passenger Pigeons and Dodo Birds, or by having an Amazon rain forest one-third its original size.
    Yes, it is. I would love to see Dodo Birds and Passenger Pigeons in the wild. I am a full-time world traveler and I travel to both see the people of the planet and its wild plants and animals. We can't rebuild these lost animals (at least not yet). We can always rebuild a parking lot or a convenience store. To lose something unique and irreplaceable for something easily replaced and mass-produced is a very sad thing in my view.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

 

 

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