Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 39

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    10,704
    Post Thanks / Like

    Religious Exemption Laws

    It's not too uncommon for groups to argue that they can legally discriminate against gays in situations where one typically cannot because they have the right to follow their own religious conscience under freedom of religion. This is commonly referred to as "religious liberty".

    And recently one forwarded the same reasoning to discriminate against a mixed-race couple.

    "An event venue in Mississippi has issued an apology after its owner was shown on video saying that her “Christian belief” led her to decline hosting a wedding ceremony for an interracial couple.

    The video of the incident, which went viral over the weekend, shows an exchange between a woman later identified as the venue owner and a black woman named LaKambria Welch. In an interview with digital news outlet Deep South Voice, Welch says that she went to Boone’s Camp Event Hall In Booneville to clarify why it had recently said that “because of [the company’s] beliefs” it would not host a wedding ceremony for her brother, who is black, and his fiancée, who is white."


    https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/...ious-exemption

    And to be honest, IF we do accept the "religious liberty" argument, she should be able to do that. I understand that it's not a common religious viewpoint that races should not mix but there is no judge to say "that is a religious belief but that other belief isn't" so one can invoke religion to justify pretty much any view point.

    But my primary argument is that the "religious liberty" argument is bunk. Clearly, we would not let that be an excuse for a serious crime, like someone murdering another person because their religious belief advocated that murder. And the same goes for smaller legal issues as well. If a secular person must follow a law then a religious person must follow it as well. And if a religious person should not have to follow a particular law, then no on should have to follow it.

    To say "You can refuse to serve gays because of a religious objection" is valid but "You can refuse to serve gays because you just don't like them" is not valid seems to be a direct violation of, well, religious freedom. Legally, religious reasoning is not inherently superior to secular reasoning. If we are to argue that on should not be forced to violate one's conscience in order to obey a law, then it doesn't matter if it's religious or secular conscience that we are protecting.

    So if one wants to argue that companies should be allowed to refuse to serve gays, I disagree of course. But if one is to hold that they should be able to do it, there is no valid legal reason to hold that religious motivation is a superior reason than other reasons.
    Last edited by mican333; September 5th, 2019 at 08:26 AM.

  2. #2
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,949
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Religious examption laws

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Legally, religious reasoning is not inherently superior to secular reasoning.
    Indeed, except that the inverse is the case. Especially given the facts that we are a secular country founded on secular thinking. The first amendment diametrically contradicts the first commandment.

    Unfortunately, this is the thrust of the attack against so many has taken. I say unfortunate because there is an actual argument to be made regarding artistic expression and creativity which I would support. That argument, however, is much more narrow and wouldn't allow someone renting a hall to get away with their bigotry.

    From what I know of the case, the famous baker who refused to bake a cake for a gay couple never refused to sell them a cake. He supposedly said he would. What he wouldn't do is use his artistic expertise in creating a cake for them. Therein lies the difference.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  3. #3
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    6,446
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Religious Exemption Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    It's not too uncommon for groups to argue that they can legally discriminate against gays in situations where one typically cannot because they have the right to follow their own religious conscience under freedom of religion. This is commonly referred to as "religious liberty".

    And recently one forwarded the same reasoning to discriminate against a mixed-race couple.

    "An event venue in Mississippi has issued an apology after its owner was shown on video saying that her “Christian belief” led her to decline hosting a wedding ceremony for an interracial couple.

    The video of the incident, which went viral over the weekend, shows an exchange between a woman later identified as the venue owner and a black woman named LaKambria Welch. In an interview with digital news outlet Deep South Voice, Welch says that she went to Boone’s Camp Event Hall In Booneville to clarify why it had recently said that “because of [the company’s] beliefs” it would not host a wedding ceremony for her brother, who is black, and his fiancée, who is white."


    https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/...ious-exemption

    And to be honest, IF we do accept the "religious liberty" argument, she should be able to do that. I understand that it's not a common religious viewpoint that races should not mix but there is no judge to say "that is a religious belief but that other belief isn't" so one can invoke religion to justify pretty much any view point.

    But my primary argument is that the "religious liberty" argument is bunk. Clearly, we would not let that be an excuse for a serious crime, like someone murdering another person because their religious belief advocated that murder. And the same goes for smaller legal issues as well. If a secular person must follow a law then a religious person must follow it as well. And if a religious person should not have to follow a particular law, then no on should have to follow it.

    To say "You can refuse to serve gays because of a religious objection" is valid but "You can refuse to serve gays because you just don't like them" is not valid seems to be a direct violation of, well, religious freedom. Legally, religious reasoning is not inherently superior to secular reasoning. If we are to argue that on should not be forced to violate one's conscience in order to obey a law, then it doesn't matter if it's religious or secular conscience that we are protecting.

    So if one wants to argue that companies should be allowed to refuse to serve gays, I disagree of course. But if one is to hold that they should be able to do it, there is no valid legal reason to hold that religious motivation is a superior reason than other reasons.
    Perhaps, the better argument is not that there should be special carve-outs for religious beliefs, but that people should not be forced to express themselves contrary to their beliefs whether religious or not.

    First, your argument regarding murder has been clearly stated in court precedent (Reynolds v. U.S. 1879). One cannot commit an illegal act and claim religious exemption from the law. So, we need to look at your argument with a more narrow lens. If you go through case law and court precedent, then I think the issue is whether suppression of 1st amendment rights is warranted is probably based on something of a two-prong test where if either prong is true, then state suppression of the 1st amendment is acceptable.

    1. Would the expression result in serious harm? In your example, you used murder which clearly results in serious harm. Hence, any behavior which breaks the law and where the law demonstrates it is intended to prevent serious harm, then that behavior would be exempt from 1st amendment protection.

    2. Would suppression of expression meet some compelling state interest? For instance, the court, at one time, ruled that a law which mandates pledging allegiance to the flag served a compelling state interest which trumped students' rights to decline based on religious beliefs. This ruling may have been reversed later, but it is merely an example to demonstrate a compelling state interest.

    So, for me, you'd have to show that suppressing the store's right to deny inter-racial couples meets either prong noted above. Maybe you can. Maybe you cannot. Similarly, you'd have to offer a separate argument for those seeking single-sex marriage services. Again, maybe you can and maybe you cannot.

    The point I'd like to make here is that limiting the 1st amendment to only religious beliefs/viewpoints seems unnecessarily narrow. And while I do understand your argument is based on those specifically claiming those beliefs, I am not sure they specifically oppose freedom of expression for non-religious beliefs. They are simply making the argument on behalf of their own beliefs and from where their own beliefs originate. Or maybe, you are just assuming a very narrow definition of religion. The SCOTUS has not been entirely consistent over the years which isn't helpful but have swung between narrow and broader definitions.

    What you may quarrel with, but I suspect you don't, is SCOTUS precedent which actually narrows protections for commercial speech which is the kind of speech we are really discussing here. So, while you are worried about a separate exception for religious speech, you seem to have no issue when it comes to exceptions (or lack of them) on behalf of commercial speech. I'd rather like to think speech is speech and it is either harmful and needs to be restricted or it is not and does not. I also tend to think harm is a fluid term. What may be a compelling state interest today may not be a compelling interest tomorrow. Going back to your example of the inter-racial couple, I'd like to think the harm by a business to refuse them service is significantly less than the harm 100 years ago in that one business or a small subset of businesses really cannot have significant impact over the inter-racial couple's ability to get the service or product they need. At the very least, we should agree the impact is less today then it was then.

    We may still agree that there is a compelling state interest to continue to ensure inter-racial couples are given complete access to the marketplace. It comes down to whether you agree with my two-prong test stated above and whether we agree that the inter-racial example meets either of the two prongs. Or, if this is really about same-sex marriages, then apply the prongs to that instead. I am hoping we can both agree the first prong isn't met. As for the 2nd prong, I am happy to hear your argument. Otherwise, we largely agree that religion, itself, should not drive the ability to be exempted from a particular law, although, it may be used to demonstrate a particular belief.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  4. #4
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    10,704
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Religious Exemption Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Perhaps, the better argument is not that there should be special carve-outs for religious beliefs, but that people should not be forced to express themselves contrary to their beliefs whether religious or not.
    But most of the proposed exceptions aren't about speech.

    The only one that seems to be about speech is the wedding cake one.

    The sought exemptions for covering birth control in company insurance, or not filling out prescriptions for birth control or morning after pills, or not servicing gay couples for adoption, or renting out facilities to gay or mixed-race couples, is people arguing that they should not have to follow a particular law due to conflicts with their religious faith - that following the edicts of their faith overrides whatever legal responsibility they may have to do those things.

    And I'm arguing that that is a false argument.

    Taking the renting the facilities situation. If one wants to argue that NO ONE should be forced to rent out their facilities if they don't want to, then we can discuss whether people have a right to that with their property and if we agree that they should have the right to refuse to rent, then there is no need for religious exemption. And if we determine that they don't have the right to pick and choose who they rent to, then there can be no religious exemption (just like there can't be for murder).

    So while I see no problems with what you are arguing, I don't think it really addresses the argument that I'm presenting.

    ---------- Post added at 01:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I think that in terms of a constitutional argument, this is a categorical error.
    In that, there was no distinction in their mind or between the ideas at the time between a "religious" motivation and a "secular" motivation.
    In the concepts, the way your using "secular" would be a kind of religion.

    I mean, I understand the distinction you are making, and I won't argue that it isn't valid or not helpful.
    Simply that I agree with the statement that people shouldn't be forced to violate their conscience in order to comply with the law.
    Well, I'm sure you'd agree that "following one's conscience" as an excuse to commit murder won't fly so clearly following one's conscience is generally not a valid reason to not comply with the law.

    And I am referring to those who argue that they should be able to violate the law that everyone else has to follow because they are doing so for religious reasons. I mean that it's pretty much the definition of "religious exemption".

    And I think you are kind of backing up my point, in those situations where we agree that one should be allowed to act on their own morality (in other words where there is no legitimate legal reason to bar someone from acting as he/she wishes) whether the motivation can be pointed to a religious belief or a secular moral belief should make no difference at all. So there is no valid reason for a "religious exemption" to a law. If the law must be followed by all, then the relgious must follow it as well. And if one should be able to do X because of their conscience, then it doesn't matter what the root of their belief is.

  5. #5
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    6,446
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Religious Exemption Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But most of the proposed exceptions aren't about speech.

    The only one that seems to be about speech is the wedding cake one.

    The sought exemptions for covering birth control in company insurance, or not filling out prescriptions for birth control or morning after pills, or not servicing gay couples for adoption, or renting out facilities to gay or mixed-race couples, is people arguing that they should not have to follow a particular law due to conflicts with their religious faith - that following the edicts of their faith overrides whatever legal responsibility they may have to do those things.

    I think this goes to the meaning and scope of the 1st amendment which isn't solely about speech. Freedom of expression and association are in there too.


    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
    [3]"
    What does it mean to exercise one's religion? I'd think it includes the right to be Christian (or whatever religion) wherever one may be and to freely choose with whom to associate. What is the meaning of speech? In your list of items, perhaps we'd agree that some of those things aren't (or shouldn't) be protected by the 1st amendment. The question asked, though, was whether there should be special exemptions for religious beliefs. And to that, it sounds like we both agree that the answer is no. What I'd argue for most items on the list is whether the law is proper. Does it meet a significant state interest or is it protecting the safety of its citizens. Again, for laws against murder, there can be no 1st amendment exemptions. For certain types of discrimination, let's say with black people, there is a historical reason why this law serves a compelling state interest. However, I'd also argue that such a reason is less compelling today than it was in 1957. So, we should always be asking whether we can eliminate laws which infringe on basic rights. Sometimes the answer will be no. Sometimes, the answer will be yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    And I'm arguing that that is a false argument.

    Seems a bit pompous, but you're entitled to your opinion.


    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Taking the renting the facilities situation. If one wants to argue that NO ONE should be forced to rent out their facilities if they don't want to, then we can discuss whether people have a right to that with their property and if we agree that they should have the right to refuse to rent, then there is no need for religious exemption. And if we determine that they don't have the right to pick and choose who they rent to, then there can be no religious exemption (just like there can't be for murder).

    I do not disagree with this (except where you equivocate it to murder). I think if we want a law that landlords can be compelled to rent to people whom they do not like (for any reason), then the state must show either
    a) Protection from serious harm (i.e. murder laws)
    b) A compelling state interest (i.e. undoing the impact of slavery)

    So, I'd have little problem with a law that prevents discrimination based on racial preference. I am not sure the two prongs noted above could be properly applied to any other type of discrimination. I am certainly open to be persuaded. Also, I don't think laws that prevent racial discrimination in renting should exist forever. At some point, slavery just won't be as compelling a reason as it once was. I don't know when that will ultimately be. I wouldn't be entirely opposed to getting rid of racial discrimination laws either however. So, I'm kinda on the fence already.

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So while I see no problems with what you are arguing, I don't think it really addresses the argument that I'm presenting.
    I think where we disagree, and what you are opposing, is the idea that removing exemptions could be or should be replaced by a more liberal interpretation of the 1st amendment which would not allow for restricted expression based on anything the state claims it has an interest in restricting (i.e. commercial speech).

    For example, why can't an insurance company claim to have a religious belief that prevents it from endorsing or paying for birth control? So long as it is up-front with its coverage, where is the compelling state interest that abridges the company's right to associate with a specific consumer base that is composed of people who share a similar belief regarding birth control? Is it speech? Arguably. It is most definitely a choice of association which is also protected by the 1st amendment. I am just as ok with a company that doesn't want to provide coverage for birth control as I am ok with a company that wants to automatically include birth control coverage in all of its riders. In both cases, the company and its consumers are making a free choice to associate with each other which should be protected.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  6. #6
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,949
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Religious Exemption Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    For example, why can't an insurance company claim to have a religious belief that prevents it from endorsing or paying for birth control? So long as it is up-front with its coverage, where is the compelling state interest that abridges the company's right to associate with a specific consumer base that is composed of people who share a similar belief regarding birth control? Is it speech? Arguably. It is most definitely a choice of association which is also protected by the 1st amendment. I am just as ok with a company that doesn't want to provide coverage for birth control as I am ok with a company that wants to automatically include birth control coverage in all of its riders. In both cases, the company and its consumers are making a free choice to associate with each other which should be protected.
    What about where that decision is being made by a company owner for their employees?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  7. #7
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    6,446
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Religious Exemption Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    What about where that decision is being made by a company owner for their employees?
    Obviously, when you choose to work for a company, you accept their terms of employment and benefits. If the benefits of that company don't suit your needs, then work somewhere else. What else can I tell ya? Life's not fair. You can't always get what you want. Practice abstinence. Ask the company to pay into a flexible health saving account and buy your own birth control. It's a job. You're always free to go look for another.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  8. #8
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,949
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Religious Exemption Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Obviously, when you choose to work for a company, you accept their terms of employment and benefits. If the benefits of that company don't suit your needs, then work somewhere else. What else can I tell ya? Life's not fair. You can't always get what you want. Practice abstinence. Ask the company to pay into a flexible health saving account and buy your own birth control. It's a job. You're always free to go look for another.
    They could also just pay you the cash equivalent of the insurance and let you buy your own. Sounds like freedom and individual choice to me.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  9. #9
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    6,446
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Religious Exemption Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    They could also just pay you the cash equivalent of the insurance and let you buy your own. Sounds like freedom and individual choice to me.
    Sounds fine if that's what the company and its employees agree to. When you start your business, this is certainly something you may offer to your employees.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  10. #10
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,949
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Religious Exemption Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Sounds fine if that's what the company and its employees agree to. When you start your business, this is certainly something you may offer to your employees.
    So since there are alternatives the appeal for that kind of religious exemption is invalid.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  11. #11
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    9,174
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Religious Exemption Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    If we are to argue that on should not be forced to violate one's conscience in order to obey a law, then it doesn't matter if it's religious or secular conscience that we are protecting.
    I think that in terms of a constitutional argument, this is a categorical error.
    In that, there was no distinction in their mind or between the ideas at the time between a "religious" motivation and a "secular" motivation.
    In the concepts, the way your using "secular" would be a kind of religion.

    I mean, I understand the distinction you are making, and I won't argue that it isn't valid or not helpful.
    Simply that I agree with the statement that people shouldn't be forced to violate their conscience in order to comply with the law.
    To serve man.

  12. #12
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,949
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Religious Exemption Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I think that in terms of a constitutional argument, this is a categorical error.
    In that, there was no distinction in their mind or between the ideas at the time between a "religious" motivation and a "secular" motivation.
    In the concepts, the way your using "secular" would be a kind of religion.
    Could you expand on this?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  13. #13
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    9,174
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Religious Exemption Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by COWBOY
    Could you expand on this?
    Just that any "moral" conviction. Would have been as "religious", or been what they were talking about in seeking to protect in the const with that clause about religion.
    To serve man.

  14. #14
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,949
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Religious Exemption Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Just that any "moral" conviction. Would have been as "religious", or been what they were talking about in seeking to protect in the const with that clause about religion.
    I still don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that people of the time only had religious ideas?
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  15. #15
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    9,174
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Religious Exemption Laws

    Depends on what you mean as "religious". which is my point.
    I think their idea of religion included what some today now separate.

    IE, a "secular" moral conviction of today, would have just been considered a "religious conviction".

    They were not trying to set religious moral convictions over and above secular ones. They were just trying to protect and ensure that people could live their lives free of gov force to live and act against their convictions, which they identified as "religious".
    To serve man.

  16. #16
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    2,949
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Religious Exemption Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Depends on what you mean as "religious". which is my point.
    I think their idea of religion included what some today now separate.
    For the uneducated masses, yes, they saw religion as generally good guide. But for them and who they saw as who would be in power - with their private libraries and advanced educations - would be making the real decisions and they certainly would not be based on religion or religious doctrine. Which is why they set up a purely secular state.
    "Real Boys Kiss Boys" -M.L.

  17. #17
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    9,174
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Religious Exemption Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    Well, I'm sure you'd agree that "following one's conscience" as an excuse to commit murder won't fly so clearly following one's conscience is generally not a valid reason to not comply with the law.
    No I don't agree. There are too many assumptions you are making that matter.

    How about this.
    Would you agree that "following ones conscience" is the ONLY possible justification to JUSTLY disobeying laws?

    So for example suppose there was a law that compelled you to murder.

    I think if you can see that extreme, then we can make progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And I am referring to those who argue that they should be able to violate the law that everyone else has to follow because they are doing so for religious reasons. I mean that it's pretty much the definition of "religious exemption".
    This is a problem of Gov over reach, and the law to protect religious liberty is a DIRECT limitation on that.

    So what is the gov job, to protect rights, or to compel social actions? (Avoid playing in any perceived grey area here).

    Quote Originally Posted by MICAN
    And I think you are kind of backing up my point, in those situations where we agree that one should be allowed to act on their own morality (in other words where there is no legitimate legal reason to bar someone from acting as he/she wishes) whether the motivation can be pointed to a religious belief or a secular moral belief should make no difference at all. So there is no valid reason for a "religious exemption" to a law. If the law must be followed by all, then the relgious must follow it as well. And if one should be able to do X because of their conscience, then it doesn't matter what the root of their belief is.
    I do agree, but I think the language is important. Instead of trying to destroy the concept of religious exemption, you should rather to expand it to cover what you are making a distinction in.. namely "secular moral belief".
    If it is "moral" it is the realm of religion. In this case, the religion of secularism.

    I am not inclined to try or support any removal of religion from protection, because I see that a a slippery slope to acting as though secularism isn't itself a belief system that is equal to religion in all ways, and that it is rather some superior neutral thing that religion must bow to.

    If the gov would do it's job, then we wouldn't have an issue. And frankly the gov shouldn't have the power to compel people to violate their moral convictions WHEN it doesn't directly violate the natural rights of other people.

    so your murder example is not well suited to examining the issue. I am happy to discuss the ideas in terms of some issue that doesn't inherently violate another persons natural rights.

    Like, maybe in terms of prostitution.
    Should the gov have the power to prevent consenting adults from exchanging sex for money?

    ---edit--
    It is important to note that I am coming from the position that the LAW has to justify itself above the actions of conscience.
    So, when you appeal to murder, (and part of why I said there are a lot of assumptions tied into it) is that it isn't just a law for the sake of being a law.
    It's justification is rooted in protecting a very clear right of all people.That isn't necessarily a shared assumption with some of these other cases we see dealing with this issue.
    there is no comparable "right to another persons labor" or "right to another persons association".

    -----
    Edit .. edit
    ----
    https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-re...01891/download
    Link of interest.
    Last edited by MindTrap028; September 7th, 2019 at 11:44 AM.
    To serve man.

  18. #18
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    10,704
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Religious Exemption Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    No I don't agree. There are too many assumptions you are making that matter.

    How about this.
    Would you agree that "following ones conscience" is the ONLY possible justification to JUSTLY disobeying laws?

    So for example suppose there was a law that compelled you to murder.

    I think if you can see that extreme, then we can make progress.
    I agree that breaking such a law would be morally justifiable.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    This is a problem of Gov over reach, and the law to protect religious liberty is a DIRECT limitation on that.

    So what is the gov job, to protect rights, or to compel social actions? (Avoid playing in any perceived grey area here).
    But again, if a law is an overreach, the correct solution is to not have that law at all. It's not to have the law but allow people to disobey it as long as they do it for religious reasons.

    Again, the issue is "Religious EXEMPTIONS", which is about getting an exemption for religious reasons. I am against that.

    If I'm for the law, then I say everyone should have to follow it regardless of their religious beliefs
    If I'm against the law because it's a government overreach, then NO ONE should have to follow it and then it doesn't matter if your reasons for not obeying is religious or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I do agree, but I think the language is important. Instead of trying to destroy the concept of religious exemption, you should rather to expand it to cover what you are making a distinction in.. namely "secular moral belief".
    If it is "moral" it is the realm of religion. In this case, the religion of secularism.
    Well, the only just expansion of an exemption for an unjust law is to exempt EVERYONE and get rid of the law entirely.

    If the law violates religious conscience to such an extent that the law should not have to be followed, then the only correct solution is to eliminate the law, not give certain people exemptions from it.

    So in short, I'm saying either have the law with no exemptions or not have the law at all. But to have the law and allow ANY exemptions does not make much sense (in general, I'm sure there are some examples of justified exemptions like for handicapped people and such but there are certainly no valid exemptions for certain people to follow religious beliefs).



    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I am not inclined to try or support any removal of religion from protection, because I see that a a slippery slope to acting as though secularism isn't itself a belief system that is equal to religion in all ways, and that it is rather some superior neutral thing that religion must bow to.

    If the gov would do it's job, then we wouldn't have an issue. And frankly the gov shouldn't have the power to compel people to violate their moral convictions WHEN it doesn't directly violate the natural rights of other people.

    so your murder example is not well suited to examining the issue. I am happy to discuss the ideas in terms of some issue that doesn't inherently violate another persons natural rights.

    Like, maybe in terms of prostitution.
    Should the gov have the power to prevent consenting adults from exchanging sex for money?

    But this all seems to not be addressing religious exemption. With the prostitution example, the two answers are:
    1. Legalize prostitution and let people freely engage in it
    2. Keep it illegal and prosecute those who engage in it

    But I do not think that

    3. Keep it illegal but give an exemption to people who engage in it for religious reasons.

    And the same goes for all other laws.

    Either enforce them for all or don't have them. But no exemptions if we are going to enforce it.

    ------------------

    So can you give me an example of a valid religious/conscience exemption? As in we should have the law but certainly people should be exempt from prosecution if they break that law?

    Because if feels more like you are arguing that laws that unjustly force people to violate their moral conscience should just not exist and that is not arguing for religious exemption. It is arguing for not having certain kinds of laws at all, which is quite different than what I've been arguing.

  19. #19
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    9,174
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Religious Exemption Laws

    I am actually with you on the concept that if a law violated justifiable religious exemptions then it is a law that shoild be done away with.

    I think then religious exemptions are a result of a process that doesnt appreciate the power of a valid appeal to religious exemption.

    -
    Being on the same page there. If we applied it to say the draft. Then i can see where the other edge is.

    Namely we allow for conciencious objectors. But that doesnt mean we shouldnt have a draft.
    To serve man.

  20. #20
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    East Lansing, MI
    Posts
    10,704
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Religious Exemption Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I am actually with you on the concept that if a law violated justifiable religious exemptions then it is a law that shoild be done away with.

    I think then religious exemptions are a result of a process that doesnt appreciate the power of a valid appeal to religious exemption.
    I disagree with that. I can't think of any attempts at religious exemption that were a valid appeal to unjust laws.

    What first comes to mind when I think of religious exemption is Kim Davis refusing to grant a gay couple a marriage license despite the fact that gay marriages was legal and it was explicitly her job to grant them a license. She did not have a valid appeal - she just disagreed with the law and used RE as a way to not have to obey what was a just law.


    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Being on the same page there. If we applied it to say the draft. Then i can see where the other edge is.

    Namely we allow for conciencious objectors. But that doesnt mean we shouldnt have a draft.
    That's a very unique situation which doesn't really apply to the religious exemption controversy we are discussing.
    Last edited by mican333; September 8th, 2019 at 06:23 AM.

 

 
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Voter ID Laws...
    By onalandline in forum Politics
    Replies: 79
    Last Post: April 22nd, 2012, 01:32 PM
  2. Rape Laws Are Hate Crime Laws
    By Turtleflipper in forum Politics
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: January 14th, 2008, 11:02 AM
  3. Prophets & Man-made Religious Laws
    By Xanadu Moo in forum Religion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: August 8th, 2007, 12:14 PM
  4. Non-religious vs. Religious Lifestyles
    By Xanadu Moo in forum Religion
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: July 29th, 2005, 06:30 PM
  5. The purpose of laws
    By Apokalupsis in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: January 29th, 2004, 02:45 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •