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  1. #21
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    Re: Objective Morality with Sigfreid and Belthazor

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I thought you said something like:
    "killing is objective, murder is a moral judgment"
    Criminal law generally is a moral judgment, at least in most societies. I think I mentioned in the other thread it is good to make legal/moral distinctions sometimes. So...
    Legally: Murder is an unlawful killing of a person
    Morally: Murder is killing without sufficient moral justification

    Main discussion


    1. Does a serial rapist have the same worth as say, your mother (or anyone else you admire)?
    Objectively, yes.
    1. Is the moral worth of life greater than the moral worth of liberty?

    If Freedom = "The freedom to live as you wish or go where you want"
    I'm not sure I can think of a situation that one person's liberty is more important than another person's life.
    Let's say someone is going to be raped, a rapist has stated their intention and is moving towards the intended victim. The intended victim has a gun and can possibly kill the rapist. Is it, in hour opinion, immoral for them to kill the would-be rapist?

    The way you have defined worth I'm not sure they do.
    Here it seems you are saying no lives have moral worth. Yet you said.
    I see all humans having equal worth.
    The logical conclusion if all humans have equal worth, and there is no moral worth to life, is that no human life has any moral worth.

    Is that your position, that in your view no people don't have any moral worth to their life?
    (Aside: I suspect this is not the case, but I am trying to understand the full context of what you are saying. I get the feeling this isn't something you've given deep thought to. That is not a criticism, most people don't. But I think if you want to argue a topic, it is good to give deep reflection on it. Why do you think what you think? How do you come to your moral opinions? Also, I'm not going to challenge you if you choose to adjust or revise what you have said previously either for clarification or because you want to better explain or modify a statement.)
    Last edited by Sigfried; December 1st, 2019 at 07:43 PM.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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  3. #22
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    Re: Objective Morality with Sigfreid and Belthazor

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Main discussion

    Let's say someone is going to be raped, a rapist has stated their intention and is moving towards the intended victim. The intended victim has a gun and can possibly kill the rapist. Is it, in hour opinion, immoral for them to kill the would-be rapist?
    Given the limited information offered, it could be a moral action, however, there could certainly be circumstances I am unaware of that would make it immoral.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Here it seems you are saying no lives have moral worth. Yet you said.
    Look closer, I said "the way you have defined it" they may have no worth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    The logical conclusion if all humans have equal worth, and there is no moral worth to life, is that no human life has any moral worth.

    Is that your position, that in your view no people don't have any moral worth to their life?
    When I said all humans have equal worth I meant objectively. Humans are alive, unique, and none is more important than any other.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    (Aside: I suspect this is not the case, but I am trying to understand the full context of what you are saying.
    I appreciate this comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I get the feeling this isn't something you've given deep thought to. That is not a criticism, most people don't. But I think if you want to argue a topic, it is good to give deep reflection on it. Why do you think what you think? How do you come to your moral opinions?
    I don't see not agreeing with you as reason to think that I have not given a good deal of thought to this (or other subjects I find important enough to discuss), though I agree, most people don't. Then again, most people don't debate these things either and I think the ones that do are much more likely to have given a lot of thought before exposing their opinions to the world.

    Don't forget, I was pro choice from my teenage yrs until not long ago (which I suspect is longer than you have been alive), so to have changed position on such a touchy issue nearly demands extensive reflection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Also, I'm not going to challenge you if you choose to adjust or revise what you have said previously either for clarification or because you want to better explain or modify a statement.)

  4. #23
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    Re: Objective Morality with Sigfreid and Belthazor

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Given the limited information offered, it could be a moral action, however, there could certainly be circumstances I am unaware of that would make it immoral.
    OK, Two questions...
    1. I got the impression life was a greater moral value than liberty in your view. If so, why is it ok to kill someone to preserve yourself from rape?

    2. What is a circumstance that would change your opinion in this situation from a moral action to an immoral action? (if you cannot think of one, that's an acceptable answer.)

    Look closer, I said "the way you have defined it" they may have no worth.
    I saw that part. All these questions are about your view, not mine. You asked for a definition and I provided one to you. If you have a different definition for Moral Value then, by all means, please use your own definition. I want to understand what you actually think about morality.

    When I said all humans have equal worth I meant objectively. Humans are alive, unique, and none is more important than any other.
    How do you measure this objective worth? (For instance, I can measure weight using a scale. I can measure height using a ruler. I can measure the intensity of light with a photometer. What do I use to measure the worth of life objectively?)


    I don't see not agreeing with you as a reason to think that I have not given a good deal of thought to this.
    It's not that you disagree with me. It is that you seem reluctant or unable to answer some questions directly.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  5. #24
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    Re: Objective Morality with Sigfreid and Belthazor

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    OK, Two questions...
    1. I got the impression life was a greater moral value than liberty in your view. If so, why is it ok to kill someone to preserve yourself from rape?
    It isn't necessarily moral to kill some one to prevent a rape, though it probably could be moral in a given circumstance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    2. What is a circumstance that would change your opinion in this situation from a moral action to an immoral action? (if you cannot think of one, that's an acceptable answer.)
    I didn't say it was a moral act.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    How do you measure this objective worth? (For instance, I can measure weight using a scale. I can measure height using a ruler. I can measure the intensity of light with a photometer. What do I use to measure the worth of life objectively?)
    You don't, it doesn't vary between individuals.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    It's not that you disagree with me. It is that you seem reluctant or unable to answer some questions directly.

    I believe I have answered all of your questions honestly and directly!

  6. #25
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    Re: Objective Morality with Sigfreid and Belthazor

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    It isn't necessarily moral to kill someone to prevent a rape, though it probably could be moral in a given circumstance.
    Under what circumstances would it be moral for a woman to kill a man to prevent being raped?

    I didn't say it was a moral act.
    "Given the limited information offered, it could be a moral action..."
    What is the distinction here? If it is just some specific circumstance, what are the circumstances that would make it moral or immoral?

    You don't, it doesn't vary between individuals.
    If you can't measure it, how do you know it objectively exists?
    Feed me some debate pellets!

  7. #26
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    Re: Objective Morality with Sigfreid and Belthazor

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Under what circumstances would it be moral for a woman to kill a man to prevent being raped?
    I'm not sure...


    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    If you can't measure it, how do you know it objectively exists?
    "I think, therefore I am"
    (René Descartes)

    Because humans exist objectively.

 

 
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