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  1. #1
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    Problem passages with the Qu'ran & Hadiths

    This is for any Muslim, or even non-Muslim to explain these seemingingly problematic passages in the Qu'ran.

    I believe they are contradictions or pose serious problems with Islamic theology. Not all of the below examples are contradictions...some are simply problematic passages. If you wish to only explain the contradictions, that is acceptable of course.

    Also, if they are rationally explained, I will highlight and note the contradiction/problem as being resolved, in this very thread.

    1) The Qur'an states that you shall marry only up to four women:


    "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with orphans, marry women of your choice, two, or threee, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or that which your right hands possess..." (4:3).



    If the Qur'an is eternal, having been written on the table in heaven, then the four wife limit was an eternal decree.
    Question: Why did Muhammad have 12 wives if the Qur'an says to have only four? Khadija, sawda, Aesah (8 years old), Omm Salama, Hafsa, Zaynab (originally the wife of Muhammad's adopted son), Jowayriya, Omm Habiba, Safiya, Maymuna, Fatima, Hend, Asma (of Saba), Zaynab, Habla, Asma?

    2) The soul exits through the collar-bone when leaving the body.
    "Yea, when (the soul) reaches to the collar-bone (in its exit), 27And there will be a cry, "Who is a magician (to restore him)?" 28And he will conclude that it was (the Time) of Parting,: (75:26-28).


    Is it claimed by Muslims, that men and women are equals? If so, please explain:



    3) Muslim men may marry up to four women, but no such provision is made for Muslim women.
    "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice," (4:3).


    4) A man's inheritance should be a portion of two females
    Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half," (4:11).


    It is okay to beat wives



    "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)," (4:34).

    Back to alleged contradictions.


    Is wine consumption good or bad?
    1. O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90).
    2. (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15).
    3. Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25).
    Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?
    1. "We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).
    2. Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!" So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).
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  2. #2
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    What about the Hadith? I have a lot of questions, concerns and seeming contradictions that we could discuss.

    The Hadith, in Islam, is second in authority only to the Qur'an. The Hadith is a record of the prophet Mohammed's life, actions, and deeds. A saying in the Hadith is called a sunnah. These sunnah were transmitted by word of mouth down through the centuries having been memorized first by Muhammad's companions and then later by subsequent Muslims. Therefore, the Hadith is the written record of the oral traditions passed down from the Muslim to Muslim of what Mohammed was supposed to have said and done.
    Here's just a few from the many that I thought to be interesting.

    Angels stop asking Allah to forgive people when they pass wind.

    (1) Allah's Apostle said, "The angels keep on asking Allah's forgiveness for anyone of you, as long as he is at his Mu,salla (praying place) and he does not pass wind (Hadath). They say, 'O Allah! Forgive him, O Allah! be Merciful to him." - Volume 1, Book 8, Number 436: Narrated Abu Huraira:

    (2) When he enters the mosque he is considered in prayer as long as he is waiting for the prayer and the angels keep on asking for Allah's forgiveness for him and they keep on saying: 'O Allah! Be Merciful to him, O Allah! Forgive him, as long as he keeps on sitting at his praying place and does not pass wind. (See Hadith No. 620). - Volume 1, Book 8, Number 466: Narrated Abu Huraira:

    Satan touches people when they are born.

    (1) The Prophet said, "When any human being is born. Satan touches him at both sides of the body with his two fingers, except Jesus, the son of Mary, whom Satan tried to touch but failed, for he touched the placenta-cover instead." Volume 4, Book 54, Number 506: Narrated Abu Huraira:

    A man slept through prayer time and the devil peed in his ear.

    (1) It was mentioned before the Prophet that there was a man who slept the night till morning (after sunrise). The Prophet said, "He is a man in whose ears (or ear) Satan had urinated." Volume 4, Book 54, Number 492: Narrated 'Abdullah:

    (2) A person was mentioned before the Prophet (p.b.u.h) and he was told that he had kept on sleeping till morning and had not got up for the prayer. The Prophet said, "Satan urinated in his ears." Volume 2, Book 21, Number 245: Narrated 'Abdullah.

    You should not point towards a Muslim brother lest Satan tempt you to hit him.

    (1) The Prophet said, "None of you should point out towards his Muslim brother with a weapon, for he does not know, Satan may tempt him to hit him and thus he would fall into a pit of fire (Hell)" Volume 9, Book 88, Number 193, Narrated Abu Huraira:

    Now, these are actual and REAL scriptures from the Islamic Holy Books. For those who defend Islam, PLEASE explain these to me...I'm very curious how these problems are resolved. Are we to accept these verses? Is there a rationale for them?

    Now most of the time this subject comes up, it's usually rebutted with a direct attack on the opposition's (who ever brings up the above references) own beliefs. Actual defense of the above has never been seen. If you wish to attack another belief system, please do so in the appropriate thread. This particular thread is about the seeming contradictions and problem passages in Islamic scriptures.

    I'm always eager to learn something new...and waiting for someone to come forward and answer these questions/contradictions/concerns. If they are resolved, they will be highlighted as such.

    If you are responding to poke fun at the above, then your post will be removed. You do no justice to the defense of Islam with such behavior.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by non-croyant
    1) The Qur'an states that you shall marry only up to four women:

    Separate but equal. The two sexes have different, but complementary and equally important duties.
    But where is the "equality" of sexes here? Especially in light of the "inheritence and beating of" passages. This is also seen in Islamic courts as witnesses. 2 female witnesses are equal to 1 male witness. How is this complementary?

    Question: Why did Muhammad have 12 wives if the Qur'an says to have only four? Khadija, sawda, Aesah (8 years old), Omm Salama, Hafsa, Zaynab (originally the wife of Muhammad's adopted son), Jowayriya, Omm Habiba, Safiya, Maymuna, Fatima, Hend, Asma (of Saba), Zaynab, Habla, Asma?

    Though I know (some?) Muslims claim that Muhammad is sinless, what a human does and what the Qur'an says to do are not contradictions. Does the Qur'an state that Muhammad was sinless? I need to research that one.
    Jesus was sinless, Muhammad was not (according to Islam). So I suppose this would rectify this problem. But wouldn't it then, put into question about what else Muhammad may have ignored as he is the most important prophet of Allah? Doesn't this create a whole new set of problems?

    Is wine consumption good or bad?

    Paradise vs life on Earth.
    Satan's handiwork is in paradise? In paradise, divination and gambling are in heaven too? Also, why is wine, gambling, and divination a reward and considered intrinisically good things (which they must be if they are found in an all good place such as paradise), but it is wrong for man to indulge in them on Earth? This doesn't seem to make sense.

    Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?

    Would need to know the Arabic to respond to this. As written in English this is ambiguous.
    A story completely changes simply because it is translated? Then, it should be said, that only the Qu'ran can be read in Arabic. And if so, then it should be said that Allah is limited. If so, he is not all-powerful. And if he is limited by language, what else would he be limited to? Is a being with limits (especially that of language) worthy of worship, praise, and following?

    There are many Muslims who discount the notion that the hadith are error free.
    Perhaps. But then, how do we know that is an error and what isn't? And if it isn't known, then of what value is the Hadith?

    On the other hand...the Hadiths are scripture, holy, inspired by Allah. Does Allah err?
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    This is for any Muslim, or even non-Muslim to explain these seemingingly problematic passages in the Qu'ran.

    I believe they are contradictions or pose serious problems with Islamic theology. Not all of the below examples are contradictions...some are simply problematic passages. If you wish to only explain the contradictions, that is acceptable of course.

    Also, if they are rationally explained, I will highlight and note the contradiction/problem as being resolved, in this very thread.

    1) The Qur'an states that you shall marry only up to four women:



    "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with orphans, marry women of your choice, two, or threee, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or that which your right hands possess..." (4:3).






    If the Qur'an is eternal, having been written on the table in heaven, then the four wife limit was an eternal decree.
    Question: Why did Muhammad have 12 wives if the Qur'an says to have only four? Khadija, sawda, Aesah (8 years old), Omm Salama, Hafsa, Zaynab (originally the wife of Muhammad's adopted son), Jowayriya, Omm Habiba, Safiya, Maymuna, Fatima, Hend, Asma (of Saba), Zaynab, Habla, Asma?

    2) The soul exits through the collar-bone when leaving the body.
    "Yea, when (the soul) reaches to the collar-bone (in its exit), 27And there will be a cry, "Who is a magician (to restore him)?" 28And he will conclude that it was (the Time) of Parting,: (75:26-28).


    Is it claimed by Muslims, that men and women are equals? If so, please explain:





    3) Muslim men may marry up to four women, but no such provision is made for Muslim women.
    "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice," (4:3).




    4) A man's inheritance should be a portion of two females
    Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half," (4:11).




    It is okay to beat wives




    "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)," (4:34).


    Back to alleged contradictions.



    Is wine consumption good or bad?
    1. O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90).
    2. (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15).
    3. Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25).
    Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?
    1. "We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).
    2. Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!" So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).
    The only part I can shed some light on right now is the section addressing Muhammad's marriage to twelve women, despite the Qu'ran ordering Muslims to marry no more than four women. According to a book I read, the revelation concerning the number of women a man is allowed to marry was given to Muhammad after he had already married more than four times. Why he married a whopping twelve times, though, I forget the exact reasons for. Whatever the reason, I am sure that Jesus would not have approved, given his very strict teachings on divorce and adultery.

  5. #5
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    According to a book I read, the revelation concerning the number of women a man is allowed to marry was given to Muhammad after he had already married more than four times.
    OK, I suppose I can buy that if that is what actually ocurred. IMO, it's not that big of a deal to conduct thorough research on to validate...I will defer to this explanation as being a valid explanation that satisfies my curiousity.

    Why he married a whopping twelve times, though, I forget the exact reasons for. Whatever the reason, I am sure that Jesus would not have approved, given his very strict teachings on divorce and adultery.
    Well, Muslims do believe in Jesus' importance as the 2nd most important prophet and the only sinless prophet (another seeming problem as this IMO places Jesus as a "superior" prophet to a sinful prophet - Muhammad), but also believe that the "book" (the Bible) is horribly corrupt...so the teachings in it that oppose Islam, are "wrong", thus, the only true inspiration is that of the Qu'ran (and Hadith).
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  6. #6
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    What about the Gospel of Barnabas? whats that about?

    They accpet it into their portion of the bible, correct me if I am wrong.

  7. #7
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    I can't get used to their forum layout. Reminds me of the old school BBS's (at first glance) for some reason.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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  8. #8
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    Hello Everyone

    I am new here and Muslim (shia). I was invited by f1fan. As a shia Muslim, I will be giving debaters here a different rendition. Something they may not be used to.

    Right Apokalupsis, lets begin with your queries.

    Question: Why did Muhammad have 12 wives if the Qur'an says to have only four? Khadija, sawda, Aesah (8 years old), Omm Salama, Hafsa, Zaynab (originally the wife of Muhammad's adopted son), Jowayriya, Omm Habiba, Safiya, Maymuna, Fatima, Hend, Asma (of Saba), Zaynab, Habla, Asma?

    The decree for marrying 4 wives is Quranic.
    The knowledge of Muhammad’s twelve wives are from post Quranic texts.

    So you are getting a contradiction from 2 different sources. Is that valid?
    For instance you not that Aisha’s age as 8 (source Bukhari) but the age is not corroborated by Quran. So how does one know what is Aisha’s real age?

    Secondly, Islam from the view point of shias, decrees two kinds of marriages.
    A Full Marriage (nikah)
    A temporary marriage (mutah an nisa).

    A temporary wife in the Quran is known one “whom your right hands possess”

    The Prophet was also sanctioned women “whom his right hands possess”

    033.050 O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses

    How do you know which of Muhammad’s 12 wives was full wife and which was temporary wife?

    "Yea, when (the soul) reaches to the collar-bone (in its exit), 27And there will be a cry, "Who is a magician (to restore him)?" 28And he will conclude that it was (the Time) of Parting,: (75:26-28).

    What’s your point here?

    Is it claimed by Muslims, that men and women are equals? If so, please explain:

    No its not claimed that men and women are equal. Two verses to illustrate the point.

    003.036 When she was delivered, she said: "O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of
    a female child!"- and God knew best what she brought forth- "And no wise is the
    male Like the female.


    2.228 And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And God is Exalted in Power, Wise.

    Muslim men may marry up to four women, but no such provision is made for Muslim women.

    No problems here.

    A man's inheritance should be a portion of two females

    Absolutely correct. Further emphasizes that Islamically men are superior to women.

    It is okay to beat wives.

    Again here is context that may differ from individual to individual. There are some who believe that the verse should be translated as “beat your wives lightly with leaves”

    Or something to that effect. And since I am non Arabic Quran reading Muslim, I cannot state my position on the above authoratively. But beliefnet might be a good site to verify this claim.

    Is wine consumption good or bad?

    Wine consumption in earthly context is bad. There are no contradictions since one type of wine is made by Humans and one by God.

    If you see a contradiction, then you are equating Man’s wine quality to God’s wine quality. Therefore Man = God.

    Can you possible sustain such an ethic?

    Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?

    The Pharoah was killed by drowning. Is it impossible to think that the Pharoah drowned and his remains weere preserved in his body?

    Have you not seen how many bodies of ancient men emerging that weree naturtally mummified e.g. The Ice-Man?

  9. #9
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    Welcome matatu, and thank you for your knowledgeable response. A few questions however...

    Quote Originally Posted by matatu
    Question: Why did Muhammad have 12 wives if the Qur'an says to have only four? Khadija, sawda, Aesah (8 years old), Omm Salama, Hafsa, Zaynab (originally the wife of Muhammad's adopted son), Jowayriya, Omm Habiba, Safiya, Maymuna, Fatima, Hend, Asma (of Saba), Zaynab, Habla, Asma?

    The decree for marrying 4 wives is Quranic.
    The knowledge of Muhammad’s twelve wives are from post Quranic texts.
    So then, are you claiming that Muhammad didn't have 12 wives, but only 4? I don't know of any Islamic scholar that believes he didn't have 12. Consider: http://anwary-islam.com/women/prophets-wives.htm or http://www.islamic-paths.org/Home/En...troduction.htm

    For instance you not that Aisha’s age as 8 (source Bukhari) but the age is not corroborated by Quran. So how does one know what is Aisha’s real age?
    Through the Hadiths. Are they not to be taken seriously or accurately? Many Muslim scholars would disagree.

    Consider: Bukhari, Book of Qualities of the Ansar, chapter: ‘The Holy Prophet’s marriage with Aisha, and his coming to Madina and the consummation of marriage with her’. Aisha herself narrated...
    The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
    Also in the same book, it is said...
    “Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed [alone] for two years or so. He married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.”
    Do we discredit these and accept others? Doesn't that seem to be more of a "convenience" than anything else? What is the standard that we apply in determining the accuracy and authenticity of the accounts?
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apok
    But where is the "equality" of sexes here? Especially in light of the "inheritence and beating of" passages. This is also seen in Islamic courts as witnesses. 2 female witnesses are equal to 1 male witness. How is this complementary?
    It seems there are cultural influences at play here just as the Bible shows cultural influences. Yet to modern Christians this doesn't seem to be a critical issue to them, as they deny modern relevance. This sounds like Special Pleading, once again, which is: applying a different standard and/or criteria to one example than to another.
    Just another hostile non-theist.

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    Not at all. Show me where the Bible says something comparable, then you'll have a point. Also, IF Muslims stated that certain laws were limited in their specific time, place and for a certain people, there wouldn't be an issue. However this is not the case. As you can see above, matatu says men and women are not equal and men are superior to women and have more cultural and legal rights than women. Such is not the issue with Christianity.

    *edit*
    Even in your own post, you refute yourself. MODERN Christians do not apply certain laws that are in the Bible (which is the topic of another thread), MODERN Muslims DO apply said laws which you would like to compare with Christianity.
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    Welcome matatu, and thank you for your knowledgeable response A few questions however..

    Thank you for the welcome and no problem about the questions.

    So then, are you claiming that Muhammad didn't have 12 wives, but only 4? I don't know of any Islamic scholar that believes he didn't have 12.

    My point is, how do we know any better? Were there 12 wives in all any of the twelve full wives or temporary wives? Since the Quranic sanction has been provided for both.
    Can we truly rely on this post Quranic texts as axiomatic? Your own personal reservation was noted on this very thread as follows:

    What about the Hadith? I have a lot of questions, concerns and seeming contradictions that we could discuss

    My sentiments exactly.

    through the Hadiths. Are they not to be taken seriously or accurately? Many
    Muslim scholars would disagree.


    No they are not to be taken as axiomatic as opposed to be taken seriously. There is no Quranic mandate to do so. Since the ahadith are human products. They are divided into sectarian ahadith and the scholars who champion their respective sects are the ones who are likely to disagree.

    I will give you an example of a bad hadith. Go to Sahih Bukhari book 54 (The book on the beginning of creation) and look at hadith # 429 about Muhammad’s ascension to the heavens for the event of Miraj.

    Once you have read the hadith in its entirety, please read up Genesis 18 and see if you notice the hadith as a dead ringer to Genesis 18.

    Consider: Bukhari, Book of Qualities of the Ansar, chapter: ‘The Holy Prophet’s marriage with Aisha, and his coming to Madina and the consummation of marriage with her’. Aisha herself narrated... … Do we discredit these and accept others? Doesn't that seem to be more of a "convenience" than anything else? What is the standard that we apply in determining the accuracy and authenticity of the accounts?

    You could be right that “convenience” could be a factor. But at the same time it could also be deemed as “higher criticism” of fallible product from fallible minds.

    There are several ways to cut and analyse ahadith. I suggest you come to beliefnet boards’ discussion that is going on at this very moment regarding the same issue. The discusion is available here:

    http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/mess...ssionID=328325


    The difference between Quran and hadith primarily IMO is that Quran fully subjects itself to the laws of naturalism as a falsification test which hadith never factored. Good examples would be the Quranic rebuttals to the gosepls are steeped in naturalism but the hadith have failed to pick up the elements. I would be more than happy to provide examples.

    Secondly Quran has ever so cleverly depicted the credible secondary source of guidance and the people behind them.

    Also Ali, Muhammad’s cousin and Muhammad’s first male Muslim convert classified the ahadith into 4 categories which can be found here:

    http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/209.htm

  13. #13
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    I wish every body, especially modern Islamic scholors would take things in their context and time.

    Mohammed was born of a culture and time when women had little power, save maybe in the kitchen and in the marital bed. They were in many way part of the goods and chattles of men and could be treated badly or well according to the whims of their lords and masters. Genetically women live longer than men. The middle eastern warrior tribes saw to it that large numbers of men were also killed off in battles and tribal turf wars. Culturally the surplus women were not as free as men to move about, seek jobs or involve themselves in much of the decision making.

    It was in effect a practical and 'charitable' thing to see that all women found shelter in households, and then one thing would lead to another and we would have polygamous arrangements. Mohammed being a red blooded male would go along with this. There was also the fact that with status would come possessions and with possessions would come status. Spoils of war also were a consideration and Mohammed was nothing if not a warrior. When he ordered Medina to be razed to the ground, someone asked him about the children and babies inside, his reply was that, 'they are their's', a far cry from Jesus' teachings about the preciousness and innocence of children and babies.

    Indeed, Islam is at its most contorted in respect to Jesus. Many Islamic scholors say he was the most important of the profits after Mohammed himself and then there are the extreme 'Wahhabi' like types who do not rate Jesus as a profit at all.

    Here in Sheffield UK, I often drive past an Islamic centre proclaiming, Allah and Mohammad and listing their other important profits (conveniently lifted from the Old Testiment and Judaism and Labelled Islamic), but no mention of Jesus.

    The extremists overlook that all the profits spoke of the Christ and his personal sacrifice. I will post up what is at present about four sides (A4) of well referenced aguement, when I have managed to cut it down some more, while still maintaining its integrity.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  14. #14
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    to know your own religion would help the debate

    Part 1
    Quote Originally Posted by matatu
    Hello Everyone
    I am new here and Muslim (shia). I was invited by f1fan. As a shia Muslim, I will be giving debaters here a different rendition. Something they may not be used to.
    Right Apokalupsis, lets begin with your queries.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    Question: Why did Muhammad have 12 wives if the Qur'an says to have only four? Khadija, sawda, Aesah (8 years old), Omm Salama, Hafsa, Zaynab (originally the wife of Muhammad's adopted son), Jowayriya, Omm Habiba, Safiya, Maymuna, Fatima, Hend, Asma (of Saba), Zaynab, Habla, Asma?
    Quote Originally Posted by matatu
    The decree for marrying 4 wives is Quranic.
    The knowledge of Muhammad?s twelve wives are from post Quranic texts.
    So you are getting a contradiction from 2 different sources. Is that valid?
    For instance you not that Aisha?s age as 8 (source Bukhari) but the age is not corroborated by Quran. So how does one know what is Aisha?s real age?
    Secondly, Islam from the view point of shias, decrees two kinds of marriages.
    A Full Marriage (nikah)
    A temporary marriage (mutah an nisa).
    A temporary wife in the Quran is known one ?whom your right hands possess?
    The Prophet was also sanctioned women ?whom his right hands possess?
    033.050 O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses
    How do you know which of Muhammad?s 12 wives was full wife and which was temporary wife?
    There is a novel attempt here by a Muslim to create a dichotomy in his own beliefs! It is permissible for a Muslim to be deceptive when explaining his faith - it is 'permitted'.

    "Many Muslim practices find their origin in the Hadith...In addition to guiding the personal Haddith of Muslims, the Hadith is also an important source of Islamic law, second only to the Quran."
    http://www.family.org/cforum/fosi/is...s/a0026774.cfm

    "The Sunnah is the example set by Muhammad in all aspects of life, from spiritual to mundane. The Hadith are the stories and narrations of the Sunnah as told by various individuals who were close to Muhammad. The majority of Muslims regard the Hadith as equal in importance with the Quran"
    http://www.knowislam.info/hadithsunnah.html

    Thus this makes absolutely superfluous that the sources of Muhammad's marriages comes from outside the Koran. It is a fundamental mistake of this Muslim apologist to suggest that because something is to be found outside the Koran, it is unreliable - or less reliable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apolalupsis
    Is it claimed by Muslims, that men and women are equals? If so, please explain:
    Quote Originally Posted by matatu
    No its not claimed that men and women are equal. Two verses to illustrate the point.
    003.036 When she was delivered, she said: "O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of a female child!"- and God knew best what she brought forth- "And no wise is the
    male Like the female.
    2.228 And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And God is Exalted in Power, Wise.
    Ah, irony. Finally some honesty that sort of goes against the claims made by these Muslim apologists...
    "Gender Equality in Islam"
    which states "The concept of gender equality is best exemplified in the Quranic rendition of Adam and Eve."
    http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/p...rs/gender.html

    "Women's Rights and Equality in Islam"
    which states..."At the beginning Islam was the most revolutionary liberalization of women's rights the civilized world has ever seen."
    http://www.islamfortoday.com/womensrights2.htm

    "Gender Equity in Islam"
    http://www.jannah.org/genderequity/

    "Islam Declared Equality Among People"
    http://www.islam1.org/khutub/Equal.among_People.htm
    As I stated, a Muslim is permitted to lie for Allah. However, when people lie, they contradict themselves... hence Matatu's frank admission flies in the face of the 'gender equality' propaganda that Muslim apologists try to get away with.

    The last site states..."Not only did Islam emphasize the equality principle theoretically, but did it practically in some of the worship acts that translated this principle into a sensible fact that dose not escape people minds, thus: in the mosques where Friday prayer is held once every week, as well as the five daily prayers; equality is exercised practically and all the differences vanishes among people" (Ibid).
    However this 'equality' involves women being separated from the men - and usually placed at the back of the Mosque - or upstairs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apolalupsis
    Muslim men may marry up to four women, but no such provision is made for Muslim women.
    Quote Originally Posted by matatu
    No problems here.
    For you there's no problem. For dozens of Muslim scholars in the west desperate to lie about Islam and equality, it's a bit of a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apolalupsis
    It is okay to beat wives.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matatu
    Again here is context that may differ from individual to individual. There are some who believe that the verse should be translated as ?beat your wives lightly with leaves?
    Or something to that effect. And since I am non Arabic Quran reading Muslim, I cannot state my position on the above authoratively. But beliefnet might be a good site to verify this claim.
    "Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them" (Sura 4:34)

    But I will admit that one translation states...

    "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see illconduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great."

    But how do you 'beat' someone lightly? Beat means usually 'with some great force'. If they meant lightly, it should have said 'tap'. Where are the 'leaves' in the passage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apolalupsis
    Is wine consumption good or bad?
    Quote Originally Posted by Matatu
    Wine consumption in earthly context is bad. There are no contradictions since one type of wine is made by Humans and one by God.
    Wine is it good or bad? Strong drink and ... are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. [5:90, also 2:219]. Yet on the other hand in Paradise are rivers of wine [47:15, also 83:22,25]. How does Satan's handiwork get into Paradise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matatu
    If you see a contradiction, then you are equating Man?s wine quality to God?s wine quality. Therefore Man = God.
    Where does it say that it's "God's wine"? If you've got a verse I'd like to look at it. This is an area I know least about, so I'd be happy for you to show me how you know that it's God's wine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matatu
    Can you possible sustain such an ethic?
    That's assuming it's God's wine. Especially "Then thereafter will come a year in which people will have abundant rain and in which they will press (wine and oil)."
    (Surah Yusuf). If men are pressing the wine, then how is it God's wine? I agree that this could be just a 'dream'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apolalupsis
    Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?
    Quote Originally Posted by Matatu
    The Pharaoh was killed by drowning. Is it impossible to think that the Pharaoh drowned and his remains weere preserved in his body?
    Have you not seen how many bodies of ancient men emerging that weree naturally mummified e.g. The Ice-Man?
    How was he mummified by the ocean? Natural mummification comes about when the body is removed from oxygen.
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    Part 2
    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    Welcome matatu, and thank you for your knowledgeable response A few questions however..
    Quote Originally Posted by Matatu
    Thank you for the welcome and no problem about the questions.
    I forgot to add my welcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    So then, are you claiming that Muhammad didn't have 12 wives, but only 4? I don't know of any Islamic scholar that believes he didn't have 12.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matatu
    My point is, how do we know any better? Were there 12 wives in all any of the twelve full wives or temporary wives? Since the Quranic sanction has been provided for both.
    Most Mohammedans don't have any problem relying on Haddiths.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    through the Haddiths. Are they not to be taken seriously or accurately? Many
    Quote Originally Posted by Matatu
    Muslim scholars would disagree.
    Cite from them saying that this is so. What you are probably mixing up is the controversy between 'strong' and 'weak' Haddiths. There are some Haddiths that aren't as widely accepted by Muslims and these are termed 'weak' Haddiths. The 'strong' ones are more widely accepted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matatu
    No they are not to be taken as axiomatic as opposed to be taken seriously. There is no Quranic mandate to do so. Since the ahadith are human products. They are divided into sectarian ahadith and the scholars who champion their respective sects are the ones who are likely to disagree.

    I will give you an example of a bad hadith. Go to Sahih Bukhari book 54 (The book on the beginning of creation) and look at hadith # 429 about Muhammad?s ascension to the heavens for the event of Miraj.
    In fact, what you've done Matatu is pointed out another inconsistency... because the Haddiths are accepted as second to the Koran, there's the problem about the conflicting stories over what happened to Muhammad on his death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matatu
    Once you have read the hadith in its entirety, please read up Genesis 18 and see if you notice the hadith as a dead ringer to Genesis 18.
    Plagiarism!

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    Consider: Bukhari, Book of Qualities of the Ansar, chapter: ?The Holy Prophet?s marriage with Aisha, and his coming to Madina and the consummation of marriage with her?. Aisha herself narrated... ? Do we discredit these and accept others? Doesn't that seem to be more of a "convenience" than anything else? What is the standard that we apply in determining the accuracy and authenticity of the accounts?
    Quote Originally Posted by Matatu
    You could be right that ?convenience? could be a factor. But at the same time it could also be deemed as ?higher criticism? of fallible product from fallible minds.
    Again this notion actually falls apart in light of the massive error in reasoning made by Matatu - that of the credibility of the Haddiths. Recall a moment ago I talked about 'strong' and 'weak' Haddiths? The Bukhari is one of the 'strong' ones.

    I feel I will have to re-visit this point because it's such a major fault with Matatu's argument...
    "WHAT IS HADITH?
    The Hadith is the record of the sayings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). The sayings and conduct of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) constitute the Sunnah.
    The Hadith has come to supplement the Holy Quran as a source of the Islamic religious law. The Hadith is the second pillar after the Quran upon which every Muslim rests his faith. Hadith consists of Mat'n and Isnad. Mat'n means the text of the Hadith, while Isnad means the chain of transmitters to that Hadith."
    http://www.al-islam.org/short/alhadi...age1.html#what

    "In Islam, the Arabic word sunnah has come to denote the way Prophet Muhammad (saas), the Messenger of Allah, lived his life. The Sunnah is the second source of Islamic jurisprudence, the first being the Qur'an. Both sources are indispensable; one cannot practice Islam without consulting both of them. The Arabic word hadith (pl. ahadith) is very similar to Sunnah, but not identical. A hadith is a narration about the life of the Prophet (saas) or what he approved - as opposed to his life itself, which is the Sunnah as already mentioned."
    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/

    "The promise made by Allah (SWT) in Qur'an 15:9 is obviously fulfilled in the undisputed purity of the Qur'anic text throughout the fourteen centuries since its revelation. However, what is often forgotten by many Muslims is that the divine promise also includes, by necessity, the Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH), because the Sunnah is the practical example of the implementation of the Qur'anic guidance, the wisdom taught to the Prophet (PBUH) along with the scripture, and neither the Qur'an nor the Sunnah can be understood correctly without the other."
    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...hadith/brief1/

    Quite clearly the Hadith are very very important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matatu
    There are several ways to cut and analyse ahadith. I suggest you come to beliefnet boards? discussion that is going on at this very moment regarding the same issue. The discussion is available here:
    http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/mes...ussionID=328325
    The sayings of 'the Prophet' are not to be cast aside as you do. Many Muslim sites say that although Muhammad was just a man, he was the most exceptional man who ever lived...

    "The Prophet accomplished all this through the strength of his character and personal example;"
    http://www.missionislam.com/youth/muhammad.htm remember that when, in conjunction with the high regard Muslims give to Hadith, when you read...

    "...[T]he Prophet (Muhammad) said to her (Aisha), 'You have been shown to me twice in my dream. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and someone said (to me). 'This is your wife.' When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said, 'If this is from Allah, it will be done.'" (Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 5:58:235). Remember, that she was only a child. He is fantasising about a little girl!
    'Abd ar-Rahman al-Gaziri, al-Fiqh 'ala al-Mazahib al-Arba'a, Dar al-Kutub al- 'Elmeyah, 1990, vol. 4, p. 488.
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    Here they are...

    Part 3
    Quote Originally Posted by Matatu
    The difference between Quran and hadith primarily IMO is that Quran fully subjects itself to the laws of naturalism as a falsification test which hadith never factored. Good examples would be the Quranic rebuttals to the gosepls are steeped in naturalism but the hadith have failed to pick up the elements. I would be more than happy to provide examples.
    Secondly Quran has ever so cleverly depicted the credible secondary source of guidance and the people behind them.
    Also Ali, Muhammad?s cousin and Muhammad?s first male Muslim convert classified the ahadith into 4 categories which can be found here:
    http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/209.htm
    If you want contradictions just based on the Koran, how about these...

    And it just doesn't add up: Sura 4:11-12 and 4:176 state the Qur'anic inheritance law. When a man dies, and is leaving behind three daughters, his two parents and his wife, they will receive the respective shares of 2/3 for the 3 daughters together, 1/3 for the parents together [both according to verse 4:11] and 1/8 for the wife [4:12] which adds up to more than the available estate. A second example: A man leaves only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they receive 1/3 [mother, 4:11], 1/4 [wife, 4:12] and 2/3 [the two sisters, 4:176], which again adds up to 15/12 of the available property.
    How many angels were talking to Mary? When the Qur'an speaks about the announciation of the birth of Jesus to the virgin Mary, Sura 3:42,45 speaks about (several) angels while it is only one in Sura 19:17-21.
    Further numerical discrepancies Does Allah's day equal to 1,000 human years (Sura 22:47, 32:5) or 50,000 human years (Sura 70:4)? --- How many gardens are there in paradise? ONE [as stated in 39:73, 41:30, 57:21, 79:41] or MANY [18:31, 22:23, 35:33, 78:32]? --- According to Sura 56:7 there will be THREE distinct groups of people at the Last Judgement, but 90:18-19, 99:6-8, etc. mention only TWO groups. --- There are conflicting views on who takes the souls at death: THE Angel of Death [32:11], THE angels (plural) [47:27] but also "It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death." [39:42]
    Angels have 2, 3, or 4 pairs of wings [35:1]. But Gabriel had 600 wings. [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 455]
    How many days did Allah need to destroy the people of Aad? One day [54:19] or several days [41:16; 69:6,7]
    Six or eight days of creation? Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly state that God created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But in 41:9-12 the detailed description of the creation procedure adds up to eight days.
    Quick or Slow Creation? Allah creates the heavens and the earth in six days [7:54] and many Muslims want to be modern and scientific, and make that six eons, but then again, He creates instantaneously [2:117], "Be! And it is".
    Heavens or Earth? Which was created first? First earth and then heaven [2:29], heaven and after that earth [79:27-30].
    Calling together or ripping apart? In the process of creation heaven and earth were first apart and are called to come together [41:11], while 21:30 states that they were originally one piece and then ripped apart.
    What was man created from? A blood clot [96:1-2], water [21:30, 24:45, 25:54], "sounding" (i.e. burned) clay [15:26], dust [3:59, 30:20, 35:11], nothing [19:67] and this is then denied in 52:35, earth [11:61], a drop of thickened fluid [16:4, 75:37]
    Fully Detailed Or Incomplete? The Qur'an claims for itself to be (fully) detailed, that nothing is left out of the book [6:38, 6:114, 12:111, 16:89 etc.]. However there are plenty of important issues which are left unclear in the Qur'an. This article discusses the confusion found in the quranic statements on wine.
    Worshiping the Same or a Different God? Muhammad is commanded to speak to the disbelievers: ... nor do you worship what I worship [109:3]. However, other verses in the Qur'an state clearly that those disbelieving his message are in fact worshiping the same God, Allah.
    To Intercede or Not To Intercede? - That is the Question! The Qur'an makes contradictory statements whether on the Day of Judgment intercession will be possible. No: [2:122-123, 254; 6:51; 82:18-19; etc.]. Yes: [20:109; 34:23; 43:86; 53:26; etc.]. Each position can be further supported by ahadith.
    Where is Allah and his throne? Allah is nearer than the jugular vein [50:16], but he is also on the throne [57:4] which is upon the water [11:7], and at the same time so far away, that it takes between 1,000 and 50,000 years to reach him [32:5, 70:4].
    The origin of calamity? Is the evil in our life from Satan [38:41], Ourselves [4:79], or Allah [4:78]?
    How merciful is Allah's mercy? He has prescribed mercy for himself [6:12], yet he does not guide some, even though he could [6:35, 14:4].
    Will there be inquiry in Paradise? "neither will they question one another" [23:101] but nevertheless they will be "engaging in mutual inquiry" [52:25], "and they will ... question one another" [37:27].
    Are angels protectors? "NO protector besides Allah" [2:107, 29:22]. But in Sura 41:31 the angels themselves say: "We are your protectors in this life and the Hereafter." And also in other suras is their role described as guarding [13:11, 50:17-18] and protecting [82:10].
    Is everything devoutly obedient to Allah? That is the claim in 30:26, but dozens of verses speak of the proud disobedience of Satan [7:11, 15:28-31, 17:61, 20:116, 38:71-74, 18:50] as well of many different human beings who reject His commands and His revelations.
    Does Allah forgive shirk? Shirk is considered the worst of all sins, but the author of the Qur'an seems unable to decide if Allah will ever forgive it or not. No [4:48, 116], Yes [4:153, 25:68-71]. Abraham committed this sin of polytheism as he takes moon, sun, stars to be his Lord [6:76-78], yet Muslims believe that all prophets are without any sin.
    The event of worship of the golden calf: The Israelites repented about worshipping the golden calf BEFORE Moses returned from the mountain [7:149], yet they refused to repent but rather continued to worship the calf until Moses came back [20:91]. Does Aaron share in their guilt? No [20:85-90], yes [20:92, 7:151].
    Was Jonah cast on the desert shore or was he not? "Then We cast him on a desert shore while he was sick" [37:145] "Had not Grace from his Lord reached him, he would indeed have been cast off on the naked shore while he was reprobate." [68:49]
    Moses and the Injil? Jesus is born more than 1,000 years after Moses, but in 7:157 Allah speaks to Moses about what is written in the Injil [the book given to Jesus].
    Can slander of chaste women be forgiven? Yes [24:5], No [24:23].
    How do we receive the record on Judgment Day? On Judgement day the lost people are given the Record (of their bad deeds): Behind their back [84:10], or in their left hand [69:25].
    Can angels disobey? No angel is arrogant, they all obey Allah [16:49-50], but: "And behold, we said to the ANGELS: 'Bow down to Adam'. And THEY bowed down, EXCEPT Iblis. He refused and was haughty." [2:34].
    Three contradictions in 2:97 and 16:101-103 Who brings the revelation from Allah to Muhammad? The ANGEL Gabriel [2:97], or the Holy Spirit [16:102]? The new revelation confirms the old [2:97] or substitutes it [16:101]? The Qur'an is PURE Arabic [16:103] but there are numerous foreign, non-Arabic words in it.
    The infinite loop problem Sura 26:192,195,196: "It (the Qur'an) is indeed a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds, ... in clear Arabic speech and indeed IT (the Qur'an) is in the writings of the earlier (prophets)." Now, the 'earlier writings' are the Torah and the Injil for example, written in Hebrew and Greek. HOW can an ARABIC Qur'an be contained in books of other languages? Furthermore, it would have to contain this very passage of the Qur'an since the Qur'an is properly contained in them. Hence these earlier writings have to be contained in yet other earlier writings and we are in an infinite loop, which is absurd.
    Is the Torah like the Qur'an, or is it not? The Muslim claim of the corruption of the Bible leads to a contradiction between S. 2:24 and 17:88 on the one hand, and 28:49 and 46:10 on the other.
    "An old woman" and God's character About the story of Lot: "So we delivered him and his family, - all exept an old woman who lingered behind." [Sura 26:170-171] And again: "But we saved him and his family, exept his wife: she was of those who lagged behind. [Sura 7:83]. Either this is a contradiction or if indeed Lot's wife is derogatorily called "an old woman" then this does not show much respect for her as a wife of a prophet.
    More problems with the story of Lot "And his people gave NO answer but this: They said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" [Sura 7:82 & 27:56]. Yet: "But his people gave NO answer but this: They said: "Bring us the Wrath of Allah if thou tellest the truth." [Sura 29:29]. Obviously these answers are different.
    The "pleasure" of Allah? Is God's action of punishment or mercy and guidance or misguidance arbitrary?
    Did Abraham smash the idols? The accounts of Abraham, Suras 19:41-49, 6:74-83 differ quite a bit from Sura 21:51-59. While in Sura 21 Abraham confronts his people strongly, and even destroys the idols, in Sura 19 Abraham shuts up after his father threatens him to stone him for speaking out against the idols. And he seems not only to become silent, but even to leave the area ("turning away from them all").
    What about Noah's son? According to Sura 21:76, Noah and his family is saved from the flood, and Sura 37:77 confirms that his seed survived. But Sura 11:42-43 reports that Noah's son drowns.
    Was Noah driven out? "Before them *the people of Noah* rejected (their messenger): They rejected Our servant and said, 'Here is One possessed!' And he was driven out." [Sura 54:9] Now, if he is driven out [expelled from their country] how come they can scoff at him while he is building the ark since we read "Forthwith he (starts) constructing the Ark: Every time that the Chiefs of *his people* passed by him, they threw ridicule on him." [Sura 11:38] He cannot be both: Driven out and near enough that they can regularly pass by.
    Pharaoh's Magicians: Muslims or Rejectors of Faith? Did the Magicians of Pharaoh, Egyptians, become believers in the God of Moses [7:103-126; 20:56-73; S. 26:29-51] or did only Israelites believe in Moses [10:83]?
    Pharaoh's repentance in the face of death? According to Sura 10:90-92, Pharaoh repented "in the sight of death" and was saved. But Sura 4:18 says that such a thing can't happen.
    Abrogation? "The words of the Lord are perfect in truth and justice; there is NONE who can change His words." [Sura 6:115] Also see 6:34 and 10:64. But then Allah (Muhammad?) sees the need to exchange some of them for "better ones" [Sura 2:106, 16:101]. And it is not for ignorant people to question Allah because of such practices!
    Guiding to truth? "Say: 'God - He guides to the truth; and which is worthier to be followed ...?" [Sura 10:35] But how much is left over of this worthiness when we also read: "Allah leads astray whom he pleases, and he guides whom He pleases, ..." [Sura 14:4]. And how do we know in which of Allah's categories of pleasure we fall? How sure can a Muslim be that he is one of those guided right and not one of those led astray?
    What is the punishment for adultery? Flogging with a 100 stripes (men and women) [24:2], "confine them to houses until death do claim them (lifelong house arrest - for the women) [4:15]. For men: "If they repent and amend, leave them alone" [4:16]. 24:2 contradicts both the procedure for women and men in Sura 4. And why is the punishment for women and men equal in Sura 24 but different in Sura 4?
    Who suffers the consequence of sins? The Qur'an declares that everyone will be held responsible only for his own sins [S. 17:13-15, 53:38-42]. Yet, the Qur'an accuses the Jews of Muhammad's day for the sins committed some 2000 years earlier by other Jews, e.g. worshipping the Golden Calf idol.
    Will Christians enter Paradise or go to Hell? Sura 2:62 and 5:69 say "Yes", Sura 5:72 (just 3 verses later) and 3:85 say "No".
    God alone or also men? Clear or incomprehensible? The Qur'an is "clear Arabic speech." [16:103] Yet "NONE knows its interpretation, save only Allah." [3:7]. Actually, "men of understanding do grasp it." [3:7]
    Was Pharaoh Drowned or Saved when chasing Moses and the Israelites? Saved [10:92], drowned [28:40, 17:103, 43:55].
    When Commanded Pharaoh the Killing of the Sons? When Moses was a Prophet and spoke God's truth to Pharaoh [40:23-25] or when he was still an infant [20:38-39]?
    When/how are the fates determined? "The night of power is better than a thousand months. The angels and spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees." [97:3,4] "Lo! We revealed it on a blessed night." [44:3] To Muslims, the "Night of Power" is a blessed night on which fates are settled and on which everything relating to life, death, etc., which occurs throughout the year is decreed. It is said to be the night on which Allah's decrees for the year are brought down to the earthly plane. In other words, matters of creation are decreed a year at a time. Contradicting this, Sura 57:22 says, "No affliction befalls in the earth or in your selves, but it is in a Book before we create it." This means it is written in the Preserved Tablet, being totally fixed in Allah's knowledge before anyone was created. All of the above is contradicted by "And every man's fate We have fastened to his own neck." This says that man alone is responsible for what he does and what happens to him. [17:13]
    Wine: Good or bad? Strong drink and ... are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. [5:90, also 2:219]. Yet on the other hand in Paradise are rivers of wine [47:15, also 83:22,25]. How does Satan's handiwork get into Paradise?
    Good News of Painful Torture? Obviously, announcing torment and suffering to anyone is bad news, not good news. However, the Qur'an announces the good news of painful torment [3:21, 4:138, 9:3, 9:34, 31:7, 45:8, and 84:24].
    Will all Muslims go to Hell? According to Sura 19:71 every Muslim will go to Hell (for at least some time), while another passage states that those who die in Jihad will go to Paradise immediately.
    Will Jesus burn in Hell? Jesus is raised to Allah, [Sura 4:158], near stationed with him [Sura 3:45], worshiped by millions of Christians, yet Sura 21:98 says, that all that are worshiped by men besides Allah will burn in Hell together with those who worship them.
    Jinns and men created for worship or for Hell? Created only to serve God [Sura 51:56], many of them made for Hell [Sura 7:179].
    Who is the father of Jesus? A more involved argument that is difficult to summarize in one sentence.
    Begetting and Self-sufficiency A self-contradiction on account of confused terminology.
    Could Allah have a son? Sura 39:4 affirms and Sura 6:101 denies this possibility.
    Did Jesus Die already? Sura 3:144 states that all messengers died before Muhammad. But 4:158 claims that Jesus was raised to God (alive?).
    One Creator or many? The Qur'an uses twice the phrase that Allah is "the best of creators" [23:14, 37:125]. What other creators are in mind? On the other hand, many verses make clear that Allah alone is "the creator of all things" [e.g. 39:62]. There is nothing left for others to be a creator of.
    From among all nations or from Abraham's seed? Sura 29:27 states that all prophets came Abraham's seed. But 16:36 claims that Allah raised messengers from among every people.
    Marrying the wives of adopted sons? It is important that Muslims can marry the divorced wives of adopted sons [Sura 33:37], yet it is forbidden to adopt sons [Sura 33:4-5].
    Messengers were never sent to other than their own people? So it is claimed in Sura 14:4 and 30:47. However, the Bible and the Qur'an, and the Muslim traditions confirm that Jonah was sent to a different nation.
    Messengers Amongst the Jinns and Angels? Allah sent only men as messengers [Suras 12:109, 21:7-8, 25:20-21] but there seemingly are messengers from Jinns and Angels [6:130; 11:69,77; 22:75; etc., see article for details].
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran....html#internal

    Solomon listening to ants? In Sura 27:18-19 Solomon overhears a "conversation of ants". Is this possible based on our knowledge about the mode and complexity of ant communication?
    The stars and the moon The Qur'an teaches that there are seven heavens one above the other [67:3, 71:15], and that the stars are in the lower heaven [67:5, 37:6, 41:12], but the moon is depicted as being in/inside the seven heavens [71:16], even though in reality the stars are much further away from the earth than the moon.
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran....html#external
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  17. #17
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    Finally

    Part 4
    A general critique of the Koran
    The Qor'an contains sentences which are incomplete and not fully intelligible without the aid of commentaries; foreign words, unfamiliar Arabic words, and words used with other than the normal meaning; adjectives and verbs inflected without observance of the concords of gender and number; illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have no referent; and predicates which in rhymed passages are often remote from the subjects. These and other such aberrations in the language have given scope to critics who deny the Qor'an?s eloquence. The problem also occupied the minds of devout Moslems. It forced the commentators to search for explanations and was probably one of the causes of disagreement over readings." (Dashti, Twenty-Three Years: A study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad, Allen and Unwin, London, 1985, pp. 48-49
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran...ncomplete.html

    Plus, some bonus faults
    Knowing the Hadith's credibility amongst Muhammedans, I thought I'd throw in these two gems...
    "The Prophet (Muhammed) said, 'If anyone of you rouses from sleep and performs the ablution, he should wash his nose by putting water in it and then blowing it out thrice, because Satan has stayed in the upper part of his nose all the night.'" (Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 4:54:516)

    "The Prophet (Muhammed) said, 'Yawning is from Satan and if anyone of you yawns, he should check his yawning as much as possible, for if anyone of you (during the act of yawning) should say: 'Ha', Satan will laugh at him.'" (Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 4:54:509)
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut
    I wish every body, especially modern Islamic scholors would take things in their context and time.
    They can't because Muhammed is believed to be a man for 'all time', and so is his message - I say his, because it's not from God.

    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut
    Mohammed was born of a culture and time when women had little power, save maybe in the kitchen and in the marital bed. They were in many way part of the goods and chattles of men and could be treated badly or well according to the whims of their lords and masters. Genetically women live longer than men. The middle eastern warrior tribes saw to it that large numbers of men were also killed off in battles and tribal turf wars. Culturally the surplus women were not as free as men to move about, seek jobs or involve themselves in much of the decision making.

    It was in effect a practical and 'charitable' thing to see that all women found shelter in households, and then one thing would lead to another and we would have polygamous arrangements. Mohammed being a red blooded male would go along with this. There was also the fact that with status would come possessions and with possessions would come status. Spoils of war also were a consideration and Mohammed was nothing if not a warrior. When he ordered Medina to be razed to the ground, someone asked him about the children and babies inside, his reply was that, 'they are their's', a far cry from Jesus' teachings about the preciousness and innocence of children and babies.
    It is clear that Muhammed 'loved' women, he kept nine wives and numerous concubines. But is this love? What did he invoke his followers to do? "Omar reported from the Holy Prophet (Muhammed) who said, 'No man shall be questioned for beating his wife.'" (Al Hadis, Vol. 1, p. 215)
    "The prophet said: 'When a man calls his wife to bed and she does not come, the husband spends the night being angry with her, and the angels curse her until morning. The one who is in heaven is displeased with her until the husband is pleased with her.'"(Sahih hadith, chapter 558)

    Muhammedans maintain that 'the prophet' was the best example for moral behaviour...
    "The Lord of the universe, The Most Merciful and Compassionate sent about 124,000 prophets and messengers to every nook and corner of this earth to guide humanity towards understanding the purpose of its creation and thereby surrender to His Divine Laws and achieve its final destiny of Eternal Peace in His Paradise. The last messenger of God who brought His last revelation the Holy Quraan to humanity is Muhammad bin 'Abdullah, born in Mekkah, approximately 550 years after Jesus, son of Mary, peace and blessings of God be on them both. This is the account of this last Messenger of God, the most remarkable man, that human history has known."
    http://www.daar-ul-ehsaan.org/truth/must.htm

    But I wouldn't call him 'red-blooded', but 'cold-blooded'..
    Let's look at the Haddiths (Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Narrated 'Aisha') "that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death)."
    Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64, from http://www.quraan.com

    Furthermore,
    "...[T]he Prophet (Muhammed) said to her (Aisha), 'You have been shown to me twice in my dream. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and someone said (to me). 'This is your wife.' When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said, 'If this is from Allah, it will be done.'" (Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 5:58:235). Remember, that she was only a child. He is fantasising about a little girl.

    This is in fact a clear indicator that his message is not from God.

    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut
    Indeed, Islam is at its most contorted in respect to Jesus. Many Islamic scholors say he was the most important of the profits after Mohammed himself and then there are the extreme 'Wahhabi' like types who do not rate Jesus as a profit at all.

    Here in Sheffield UK, I often drive past an Islamic centre proclaiming, Allah and Mohammad and listing their other important profits (conveniently lifted from the Old Testiment and Judaism and Labelled Islamic), but no mention of Jesus.

    The extremists overlook that all the profits spoke of the Christ and his personal sacrifice. I will post up what is at present about four sides (A4) of well referenced aguement, when I have managed to cut it down some more, while still maintaining its integrity.
    You've hit the nail on the head of another illogic notion of Islam. Islamic texts claim that the word of God can not be altered.

    Sura 6:34
    There is none that can alter the words of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers.
    Sura 10:65
    There is no changing the words of God; that is the supreme triumph.
    Sura 6:115

    The words of thy Lord are perfect in truth and in justice; NONE can change His words: For He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.

    If these were so, then the Bible is the unchanged word of God! Muslims are saying that God's words can't be changed, yet they argue that the Bible is the word of God, but that it has been corrupted by man, hence the reason for Muhammad! Also, the fact that the Koran itself has gone through many edits suggests this too is wrong.

    The Koran makes mistakes about Christianity...

    Then God will say: "Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind: "Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?"
    Qur'an 5:116

    This is part of a mistake of Muslims who believe that the Trinity isn't Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, BUT Father, Son, and Mother (Mary)!

    However, luckily for Mohammedans, an editing process was able to capturesome of the erroneous data before it made its way in... most notably "The Satanic Verses"...
    "Translated from Arabic, the satanic verses are "these are exalted females whose intercession is to be desired" in the 53rd sura of the Koran, Surat-An-Najm ("The Star"). Said to have been between verses 19-20, the females referred to were the goddesses al-Lat, Manah, and Uzza, who were three deities in pre-Islamic Arabia.
    According to customary explanation, Muhammad originally accepted these verses as part of the Koran. While the angel Jabril customarily told Muhammad to recite the sura revealed to him, Jabril then told him that the verses were actually a deception planted in his head from Satan, and they were therefore not the authentic word of Allah. The verses were later withdrawn and denounced as "satanic.""
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Verses

    What is genuine?
    "But confronted with the enormous body of hadiths, which had been scattered in various forms and narrations throughout the length and breadth of the Islamic world following the migrations of the Companions and Followers, the Sunnah sometimes proved difficult to interpret. Even when the sound hadiths had been sifted out from this great body of material, which totalled several hundred thousand hadith reports, there were some hadiths which "
    http://www.answering-islam.org/PQ/ch19-index.htm#ch19


    Sheffield is said to be one of the chief centres in the UK for conversion.
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  19. #19
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    Those "Satanic verses" are very interesting. I have never understood how Mohammedans consider Mohammed to be the most admirable man that has ever lived, when he was undeniably a murderer and a pedophile.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning
    Those "Satanic verses" are very interesting. I have never understood how Mohammedans consider Mohammed to be the most admirable man that has ever lived, when he was undeniably a murderer and a paedophile.
    Christians know that there's one 'being' that can appear deceive people as an angel of light - and that's Satan.*

    It is in fact a recognition by Mohammedans that Satan spoke to Muhammad, and that Muhammad was easily deceived by him... by making him say something the complete opposite of what he was supposed to believe in.

    I've argued against many people on Islam, and one of the classic responses by them, when I raise the issue of him sleeping with a child is that they try a relativist tome... that many cultures practiced this, or that it was more acceptable 'back then'.

    Whilst its true some famous men have done this... King John (of England) married a girl who was (from memory, I believe) about 12 years old. However
    i) we don't hold King John up to be the model of manhood
    and
    ii) Muslims argue that Muhammad is both
    a) the model man, and
    b) that the teachings of Allah are for all time... the apex in fact of his messages to man.

    When I look at the way Muhammad lived;
    killing PoWs
    marrying a dozen women/keeping concubines
    sleeping with a child
    applauding assassinations - even of a woman who wrote witty poetry against him
    urging his followers to kill non-believers, and to raid columns of caravans for their commerce
    condemning the majority of women to hell (both in death, and in life - as in the after-life hell is full of them)
    etc.
    I am absolutely astounded that anyone would think to follow this man. However, there are many forces at work in his favour, even here on these forums; especially by people who are anti-Christian.

    I know people who simply shut their minds to the possibility that Islam is evil, because they think that this is just Christian propaganda. They won't even look at the many Mohammedan sites cited.

    You speak out against Islam and you're condemned. In another Australian state (Victoria) there was a recent case where a Christian group held a lecture on Islam. The Islamic Council of Victoria sent three converts as spies to the lecture. They then put in a complaint that they had felt 'vilified'.
    http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBu...20020814c.html

    There are a number of well-meaning people out there who believe that no one's beliefs should be judged. I try and draw the one's I meet on an analogy then, regarding Nazism. Everyone in their right mind accepts that this belief system is inherently evil. Sure, there were some good Nazis; Oscar Schindler is a prime example. One could say, "I know of a good Nazi, how can you condemn all Nazis as being bad?"

    I know some nice Muslims, but their belief system - if they followed it is to me abhorrent.

    In light of this case, when a born-again Christian group decided to hold a similar lecture series here in Sydney, they went to great lengths to make sure only Christians turned up. I went along, although not a born-again. I suspect that they were a bit anxious when I said my priest's name - as he, like 98% of my church are Arabic-speakers. (I'm Antiochian Orthodox)


    * 2 Corinthians 11
    14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
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