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  1. #1
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    Defend the Monster

    Since there are a number of anti-Capital Punishment people here, I'd thought I'd bring up a real life situation for them to comment on and defend their position that capital punishment is not justice, is not punishment, and is instead unwarranted and barbaric in a specific case.

    Here is 5 yr old Samantha Runnion:



    Here is 30 year old Alejandro Avila:



    Avila kidnapped Samantha, raped her, then killed her. Samantha's body was mutilated. Anyone guess from what? Knife? Rope? Hammer? No, no. Nothing like that. Instead, her body was mutilated from the physical force of the sex investigators said.

    Samantha was abducted, kicking and screaming, from outside her home in Stanton on July 15, 2002. Her nude body was found the following day in mountains some 50 miles away, left on the ground as if it had been posed.

    A police sketch of Samantha's abductor, based on a description from an 8-year-old friend of hers, resembles Avila. Prosecutors said cell phone and bank records indicate Avila had been in the area where Samantha was abducted, DNA matching his genetic profile was found under her fingernails, and sneaker and tire prints found near the girl's body also matched with the defendant.

    Samantha's DNA was found on the inside of the door of Avila's car. That evidence came from a small amount of clear liquid that the prosecution said was consistent with tears or mucous.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156167,00.html

    During the trial, he showed no remorse. He was confident, often smirked. Perhaps this was a result of the acquittal he had in 2001 of molesting 2 young girls (which caused a public outrage btw). This 2001 acquittal is also the reason for killing Samantha according to the prosecution. For if he left Samantha alive, he would undoubtedly be back in courtl, suffering another embarrassing trial and the 2001 molestations would likely come up again. The 2 girls who were molested in 2001 (even though he was acquitted for the crimes) testified in this case.

    ------

    Now, someone please tell me why he shouldn't be put to death. I'm fine with gassing him, lethal injection, or getting fried (of the three, I HOPE for the most painful). But I would not object to allowing the father in the room for 10 minutes with this guy, alone. If this happened to me, I would probably kill him myself, in all seriousness...without reservation with the exception of one...I have another child to care for. Without that exception, I seriously doubt I'd have the reserve to refrain from doing the job myself. I'm not afraid of prison, nor of dying...especially if my world has been taken away.

    I understand that many "bleeding hearts" here (that's what I honestly believe those to be who prefer leniency for such monsters) think that punishment is only rehabilitation, but I've never seen an argument supporting that belief here at ODN...never. Usually, it's the bob and weave of "Well, how is it better to just kill him?" Since that's been addressed in every other capital punishment thread here...how about we answer a specific issue here regarding Avila. Why shouldn't we kill him? What do you like so much about Avila and other child molesters, that killing him is just too much to bare? Is there something about Avila that is more appealing to you than the children he hurts?

    Now is your chance to help objective minds understand what it is about Avila, that is so "good" that he cannot be wiped from the Earth...that he has not lost his value to society as a result of his crime against it, the most innocent of our society.
    Last edited by Apokalupsis; May 20th, 2005 at 10:00 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Re: Defend the Monster

    Apok - The death penalty touches very few people in reality - it mainly affects the victims families. The general public is not interested (IMO) in preventing executions - I mean how many demonstrations have you heard of trying to stop an execution? It has to be a rare occasion when that happens. Those who want to see public executions to satisfy "blood lust" are just sick individuals. If the death penalty was really a deterrent to murder, I would support it 100%.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Defend the Monster

    I think he should be tied down and sprayed with female gorilla estruss (sp?) hormones, then subjected to various male gorillas and their sexual depradations until death occurs.

    The event should be made public and placed on Pay Per View, where his entire family is forced to watch at gun point, and shot if they attempt to avert their attention.

    But that's just my opinion based on the fact that I have a daughter...
    But if you do not find an intelligent companion, a wise and well-behaved person going the same way as yourself, then go on your way alone, like a king abandoning a conquered kingdom, or like a great elephant in the deep forest. - Buddha

  4. #4
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    Re: Defend the Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by SnoopCitySid
    Apok - The death penalty touches very few people in reality - it mainly affects the victims families.
    It "touches" the criminal quite directly.

    The general public is not interested (IMO) in preventing executions - I mean how many demonstrations have you heard of trying to stop an execution?
    There is at least one demonstration for every execution. Follow any execution in the news...you'll always read about the protests outside the facility where the execution is to take place.

    It has to be a rare occasion when that happens.
    It happens as many times as there are executions and then some.

    Those who want to see public executions to satisfy "blood lust" are just sick individuals.
    We don't have public executions in this country.

    If the death penalty was really a deterrent to murder, I would support it 100%.
    That's great. But how about address this thread now?
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  5. #5
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    Re: Defend the Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish
    I think he should be tied down and sprayed with female gorilla estruss (sp?) hormones, then subjected to various male gorillas and their sexual depradations until death occurs.

    The event should be made public and placed on Pay Per View, where his entire family is forced to watch at gun point, and shot if they attempt to avert their attention.

    But that's just my opinion based on the fact that I have a daughter...
    1) Avila's family (father, grandfather, uncles, etc...) has a history (which came up in trial) of sexual assault and abuse. I doubt they would have to be held at gun point, they would probably pay to see it themselves, and get off on it. To me, ending this bloodline for the sheer sake of what it has produced is reason enough.

    2) Perhaps one of the differences here between the pro and the against here, is that it is typically the younger, idealistic (as well as naive) crowd who are against executions, and the more older, more experienced individuals with the responsibility of raising a family who are pro capital punishment.

    Still waiting for someone to explain how Avila has at least some "good" in him to warrant dismissing retribution and instead, getting to know him, get in touch with his feelings, "understand" him, help him, etc...
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  6. #6
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    Re: Defend the Monster

    Well Apok, I see CP as the less severe punishment for this guy, personally I feel Life Imprisonment would is more severe. I presume this guy is not deeply religious, it would have perhaps guided him away from such crimes, so he is unlikely to have a great fear of death. If you view death as just an ending, a transition is blackness and nothingness - how is that a punishment?

    Harold Shipman, a British serial killer, obviously had this same logic. He chose to commit suicide rather than spend life imprisonment and there are examples of many other people, at least trying, to do the same thing.

    Sure, CP may well appease those of us left behind but it is no punishment for the criminal. Try and imagine the rest of your life with no freedom.
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  7. #7
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    Re: Defend the Monster

    Sure, CP may well appease those of us left behind but it is no punishment for the criminal. Try and imagine the rest of your life with no freedom.
    Right, which is why so many criminals plea bargain to avoid the death penalty. I'm sure there's a ton of criminals who request the death penalty, but the Jewish media (FOX news, et al) refuses to report it...
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  8. #8
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    Re: Defend the Monster

    I am not against the death penalty, but I think it should be doled out in extreme moderation, like only for monsters (such as the example above) who do not show any signs of repentance and repeatedly commit heinous crimes.

    I disapprove of places like Singapore where trafficking drugs exceeding a certain weight guarantees you a death sentence.
    Trendem

  9. #9
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    Re: Defend the Monster

    Apok - It is indeed a horrific story, and I feel for all those who are affected.

    Apart from the long list of 'personal/rational' reasons why I am against capital punishment, which are fairly well dispersed though ODNs sites by now, in this particular case we 'appear to be dealing with a psychopath. We judge may judge him harshly for not feeling remorse because we feel that we would, and therefore he also should feel remorse. But if he is a psychopath, we are not judging like with like, unless we are also psychopaths, in which case this whole exercise would not be occurring. Do we ignore his mental/perceptual condition? If this is the case, then not to be able to percieve the meaning of things as not being an excuse/mitigation would open a whole new can of legal worms. If he has cognitive awareness, he should be 'punished', but as I am against CP for a number of reasons, I would prefer he was locked securely away, probably for life. If he does not have cognitive awareness, then he should be found 'not guilty on the grounds of diminished responsibility', but as is the proceedure in cases where it is also proved that the person commited the deed, he should be locked away securely and treated and reviewed as appropriate.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Defend the Monster

    Apok - I cannot defend this monster or any monster. A monster is a monster. I've stated my position before - we have enough laws on the books to make your head spin - just enforce the ones we have already and everything should work out.

    As far as executions - they are not widely publicized is what I meant. Sure there is a demonstration at every execution, but the general public has no idea when the event occurs unless it it is publicized by the media (which often times it is). I'm happy when one less sick individual is gone, but I'll never be an activist for capital punishment - that is a last resort option and not a right to extract (use any adjective here) revenge.
    Last edited by Snoop; May 20th, 2005 at 07:31 AM.
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  11. #11
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    Re: Defend the Monster

    I'm a fence-sitter on this, because while I would take pleasure in torturing the bastard myself to his pathetic death, I also feel that two wrongs don't make a right, and that we should not be emotionally motivated when it comes to determining law.

    I'm not understanding the view of yours that we need to prove that Avila has inherent "good" in order to be worthy of living. Lots of bad people exist and have a right to live. Where, or why, do we draw a line that some people deserve to live and others don't.

    I don't think that we can use emotional manipulation when it comes to CP. If you posted a story of the same man doing this horrendous act to a cat, would we think he should be killed for it? Maybe some cat-lovers would, but it is because they have an emotional vested interest in cats. Not everyone has an emotional vested interest in cats...or children...or people. Sociopaths least of all. They aren't capable of feeling much of anything really. If you look at it from the sociopathic view, they put people and cats on the same level...in essence, neither one serves much purpose.

    I think it is necessary to remove the "emotional" element from the equation when determining WHY CP makes sense. In my opinion, if the death penalty were to be exercised, it should be exercised for the safety of society. If there is ever a chance that this man could be unleashed on society again, then he should be killed. Prisons, while very secure, are not impossible to escape and therefore, this monster should be killed to secure the safety of society.

    I do not think he should be killed due to the emotional implications or the immoral horrendousness of the act, but as a precaution to prevent him from being unleashed onto society again. I don't think, from a legal standpoint, we should take into consideration which outcome is more painful for him (rotting in jail or rotting in a shallow grave) because that is emotionally motivated.

    However, on the other hand, and why I sit on the fence on this one, is the question of whether members of society are entitled to just compensation when another member of society wrongs them. If you slip on someone's sidewalk, you can sue them for restitution. If a man steals your child and causes your child tremendous suffering, it seems fair that the man should suffer, too, to provide restitution to the family for their loss.

    It all boils down to the conflicting moral teachings of "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" OR "Turn your cheek and offer the other also". I'm undecided as to which path is the government's responsbility. Maybe an equitable solution would be for the family to be the ones to decide, not the courts. If guilt is 100% proven, the family decides if he lives or dies, and maybe even they get to be the ones to kill him. That way, even if it is that two wrongs don't make a right, there isn't a person in existence who wouldn't understand the family's motivation to kill the sociopath. I just don't think it is necessarily society's responsibility to kill the sociopath on behalf of the family.
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  12. #12
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    Re: Defend the Monster

    Damn what is fair or unfair for this person or others like him. I've clearly stated that I would put someone like this person, (and I'd kill someone for far less than he did, for instance had he brutally raped her and somehow she survived I'd still kill the SOB with out the slightest bit of remorse.

    I've had to put down a couple of dogs. The first was old and in misery, he seemed to want to die. I dug a grave first, filled up a wheelbarrow of rock, loaded the .357 and drilled him (first shot was directly in the back of his head, the other two was too make sure he didn't suffer at all. I quickly buried him. I felt a sense of loss, because even though we inherited this by default, I got to liking the dog.

    A second dog I put down I did so at a woman's request. It was a pitbull her husband mistreated and then hit the road, leaving the dog behind. The dog growled at her and her young son a lot.

    Smart or not this lady went out and bought a yorkie thinking if the pitbull had company it would stop being agressive. Instead, on the third day she bought the yorkie the pitbull killed it and mutilated the small dog.

    She asked me to take him to the local poudn. I called first and was surprised when I was told that they do not euthanize any animals, (and so of course they had plenty) and that the pitbull would be aged by itself for the rest of it's life as they do not allow anyone to adopt a dog that has shown to be a danger.

    I didn't like the idea of the dog being treated that way, I felt death would be a better altrnative than spending years in a cage. I took the dog back to where I put down the family dog. But I did not dig any grave. I simply let the dog follow me into the wods, and well, only I left those woods. No remorse whatsoever, in fact I felt as though I had done a good deed. And that's dogs that needed to be put to death. Just like this dog of a monster should not be allowed to breathe any longer than it would take to march him from the court room to the death chamber..........:O)
    When the power of love becomes stronger than the love of power, there will be peace..........jimi hendrix.

  13. #13
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    Re: Defend the Monster

    but the Jewish media (FOX news, et al) refuses to report it...
    Wow. I thought people like you only existed on TV.

  14. #14
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    Re: Defend the Monster

    Ignoring Clive's ridiculous assertion about Foxnews being controlled by Jews... *rolls eyes*

    Apok, I assert that we as a society don't have a clue with how to deal with situations like this. There are so many factors that all seem to conflict:

    We'd all like to see the man brutalized by the grieving family, but criminals have a constitutional protection from Cruel & Unusual punishment... but what happens when the crime, itself, is both cruel and unusual?

    How does killing the man solve the situation? If we're worried about him committing the crime on someone else, the life in prison without the chance of parole will garuntee that he won't be molesting little girls anymore.

    The bible that you've based your life around dictates, "thou shalt not kill". Doesn't that warrant a punishment that does not include death?

    I assert the sad reality of the situation is that there's really nothing we can do to that monster that equals what he did to that little girl and her family. He hasn't enough "currency" to pay back the full debt that he now owes to society for depriving it of that (never-to-be-)woman.

    Is the only way to pay him back to become monsters ourselves? What other alternatives are available?

  15. #15
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    Re: Defend the Monster

    In reality, I view the death penalty not as a deterent, because it isn't, but as the final protective measure for society.

    We live by rules. Simple, direct rules.

    Now, life is often complex.

    Thou shalt not kill, becomes murder in the US. We understand that there are various interpretations of "murder" in our society.

    If you kill in self defense, it isn't really murder. We have decided that someone who premeditates a murder is in fact a "worse" criminal than someone who kills on the spur of the moment, or someone who accidently kills someone else.

    Okay....

    The reasoning there should be the potential threat to society.

    If you accidently kill someone in a fight, are you still a potential threat to the rest of us? Probably not. So the penalties are adjusted accordingly.

    This guy in the example.....

    How could society ever be safe from him? Even in jail there is the potential of escape. This may be a slippery slope, but we all know it happens from time to time.

    So...

    Fry him. Protect society from those who have proven they will prey on the weakest and most innocent, with the absolute 100% effective treatment.
    But if you do not find an intelligent companion, a wise and well-behaved person going the same way as yourself, then go on your way alone, like a king abandoning a conquered kingdom, or like a great elephant in the deep forest. - Buddha

  16. #16
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    Re: Defend the Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberclown
    She asked me to take him to the local poudn. I called first and was surprised when I was told that they do not euthanize any animals, (and so of course they had plenty) and that the pitbull would be aged by itself for the rest of it's life as they do not allow anyone to adopt a dog that has shown to be a danger.

    I didn't like the idea of the dog being treated that way, I felt death would be a better altrnative than spending years in a cage.
    I don't think you meant to but that whole story supported my arguement. Life imprisonment is more severe.
    - Quack

  17. #17
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    Re: Defend the Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Quack
    Well Apok, I see CP as the less severe punishment for this guy, personally I feel Life Imprisonment would is more severe.
    Why is it less severe? What do you know about prison time? I've been incarcerated twice, both in a state and a federal institution.

    IMO, those who believe that life in prison is "more severe than death", just don't have any understanding of what prison life is like. It's not "fun", but it's not death.

    Furthermore, this is a guy who enjoys hurting children. It's a huge sexual release for him. He will always have that memory of him having that release, satisfaction, fun/enjoyment with Samantha. That "good and pleasurable" memory will always be with him to enjoy. Why allow him to keep that?

    I presume this guy is not deeply religious, it would have perhaps guided him away from such crimes, so he is unlikely to have a great fear of death. If you view death as just an ending, a transition is blackness and nothingness - how is that a punishment?
    What? This doesn't make any sense. If death is merely a transition, then death is temporary and nothing to fear. If it is the final end, that's it, kaput, nada left...which pretty much sux.

    Harold Shipman, a British serial killer, obviously had this same logic. He chose to commit suicide rather than spend life imprisonment and there are examples of many other people, at least trying, to do the same thing.
    Yet there are more examples of people not wanting to be put to death and prefer living in a closed and protected, regimented system.

    Sure, CP may well appease those of us left behind but it is no punishment for the criminal. Try and imagine the rest of your life with no freedom.
    Ahh, I see. So it is true that you do not fully understand prison life. You are looking at it from the outside looking in. Sort of like those who have never served in the military, speaking for those IN the military.

    Let's say, JUST for the sake of the argument here, that it was universally true that all criminals feared capital punishment more than life imprisonment. Just a hypothetical mind you. Would you then remain consistent with your argument (that he should get the worst case scenerio) and support capital punishment?
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  18. #18
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    Re: Defend the Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut
    We judge may judge him harshly for not feeling remorse because we feel that we would, and therefore he also should feel remorse.
    Him being remorseful is irrelevant to me. I judge a man harshly due to his actions, not how he feels about it later. While it may play a role, it is an incredibly minor role. And being a psychopath does not give one the green light to do that which they feel, nor does it give them a free pass on capital punishment. If anything, it is more of a reason to get rid of them.

    But if he is a psychopath, we are not judging like with like, unless we are also psychopaths, in which case this whole exercise would not be occurring.
    Ok, so if one is remorseful, they are not a psychopath and we can judge them as we judge ourselves. If one is not remorseful, he is a pyschopath and we cannot judge them as ourselves?

    Do we ignore his mental/perceptual condition?
    In as far as punitive action goes, yes.

    If he has cognitive awareness, he should be 'punished', but as I am against CP for a number of reasons, I would prefer he was locked securely away, probably for life.
    But you have not explained WHY. I've already stated there are people here who oppose CP, you are merely repeating it.

    If he does not have cognitive awareness, then he should be found 'not guilty on the grounds of diminished responsibility', but as is the proceedure in cases where it is also proved that the person commited the deed, he should be locked away securely and treated and reviewed as appropriate.
    FYI, he was not found to be a psychopath, and he fully knew what he was doing to be wrong according to the court's psychiatrists.
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  19. #19
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    Re: Defend the Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by SnoopCitySid
    Apok - I cannot defend this monster or any monster. A monster is a monster. I've stated my position before - we have enough laws on the books to make your head spin - just enforce the ones we have already and everything should work out.
    Capital punishment is a law we have on the books. So then we should enforce it, right?

    I'm happy when one less sick individual is gone, but I'll never be an activist for capital punishment - that is a last resort option and not a right to extract (use any adjective here) revenge.
    There is a difference between supporting capital punishment in theory/philosophically/practically, and that of being an activist for it.

    I support it (save a few exceptions), but I'm not, nor do I plan on being an activist.

    Is this a fair description of your position? If not, then your quote above appears to be contradictory. You are happy that we kill someone as a form of punishment, but....{fill in the blank}.
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  20. #20
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    Re: Defend the Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    Ahh, I see. So it is true that you do not fully understand prison life. You are looking at it from the outside looking in. Sort of like those who have never served in the military, speaking for those IN the military.
    Are you so sure that Quack is from the outside looking in?
    Trendem

 

 
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