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  1. #1
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    Encouraging news about our border security.

    "BOSTON - On April 25, Gregory Despres arrived at the U.S.-Canadian border crossing at Calais, Maine, carrying a homemade sword, a hatchet, a knife, brass knuckles and a chain saw stained with what appeared to be blood. U.S. customs agents confiscated the weapons and fingerprinted Despres. Then they let him into the United States.

    The following day, a gruesome scene was discovered in Despres' hometown of Minto, New Brunswick: The decapitated body of a 74-year-old country musician named Frederick Fulton was found on Fulton's kitchen floor. His head was in a pillowcase under a kitchen table. His common-law wife was discovered stabbed to death in a bedroom.

    Despres, 22, immediately became a suspect because of a history of violence between him and his neighbors, and he was arrested April 27 after police in Massachusetts saw him wandering down a highway in a sweat shirt with red and brown stains. He is now in jail in Massachusetts on murder charges, awaiting an extradition hearing next month.

    At a time when the United States is tightening its borders, how could a man toting what appeared to be a bloody chain saw be allowed into the country?" - http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...ain_saw_border

    He looks safe to me... Seriously, how is this possible? Four years after 9/11, and we're letting people with bloodied weapons across the border?

  2. #2
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    Re: Encouraging news about our border security.

    We need better chainsaw control laws! The Founding fathers never expected saws to be developed into the death-spewing carnage machines that they are today.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Encouraging news about our border security.

    Here's why:

    "Bill Anthony, a spokesman for U.S. Customs and Border Protection, said the Canada-born Despres could not be detained because he is a naturalized U.S. citizen and was not wanted on any criminal charges on the day in question.

    Anthony said Despres was questioned for two hours before he was released. During that time, he said, customs agents employed "every conceivable method" to check for warrants or see if Despres had broken any laws in trying to re-enter the country.

    "Nobody asked us to detain him," Anthony said. "Being bizarre is not a reason to keep somebody out of this country or lock them up. ... We are governed by laws and regulations, and he did not violate any regulations."

    Anthony conceded it "sounds stupid" that a man wielding what appeared to be a bloody chain saw could not be detained. But he added: "Our people don't have a crime lab up there. They can't look at a chain saw and decide if it's blood or rust or red paint."-The same freakin' article.

    Yes it was a mistake, but they had no legal way to detain him, and they tried like heck to see if they could find a way to do it anyways.
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  4. #4
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    Re: Encouraging news about our border security.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iluvatar
    "Being bizarre is not a reason to keep somebody out of this country or lock them up. ... We are governed by laws and regulations, and he did not violate any regulations."
    It's not like he had a nose ring and facial tatoos. He had a chainsaw that the authorities suspected was covered with blood. No need for further investigation!

    Funny how they could legally remove the chainsaw from his possession (i.e., deprive him of his private property) but could not imprison or detain him.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  5. #5
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    Re: Encouraging news about our border security.

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples
    It's not like he had a nose ring and facial tatoos. He had a chainsaw that the authorities suspected was covered with blood. No need for further investigation!

    Funny how they could legally remove the chainsaw from his possession (i.e., deprive him of his private property) but could not imprison or detain him.
    This is true, however to use your same argument it's not like he had a Rubix Cube sitting on his frot seat that they took from him, everything they took can be considered a lethal weapon and these things by law have to be taken from his possession when crossing the border.

    Example: i was driving back home from my parents house after my father called me saying that he was giving up his guns,my brother took the lot of them except a .22 rifle that i used to shoot in a target range,i was pulled over by the police for speeding and the rifle was in a case in my back seat,i informed the police about what i had in my possession and although the gun was unloaded and in a case they still, by law, had to confincate this rifle they ran a check on the rifle pertaining to crimes with a .22 and also to see if it was stolen property,finding nothing wrong,i was able to retreive the rifle a few days later.

    By law the Border Patrol did everything by the book...they simply had no reason to detain this person simply because of the weapons in his car.

    Granted there was stains on the chainsaw that could be considered blood but like they said it couldve been paint,rust,ect i've even seen types of sap from trees that looks like blood and Border Patrol dosen't have the means to analyze this type of subtance.

    Now i assume that this chainsaw or the place in which he set this chainsaw wasn't soaked in blood it's safer to assume he cleaned it off as best he could before he stored it.

    The problem is we already knew what he did because of the news and i'm sure the Border Patrol officer was sick to his stomach when he found out he let a murderer slip through his/her hands.

    Now if the body of the man he killed was found and Border Patrol alerted about a possible crossing of a man matching his description and they failed to stop him especially with the murder weapon in his car then that would be a completly different story.

    It is indeed a shame that they didn't have an idea about who this man really was but on the same token i'm releaved that they did confiscate the weapons in his car..who knows what he would've done had he crossed the Border with these weapons on him.
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  6. #6
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    Re: Encouraging news about our border security.

    Quote Originally Posted by cnn.com
    Fulton's daughter found her father's body two days later. His car was later found in a gravel pit on a highway leading to the U.S. border. Despres hitchhiked to the border crossing.
    Emphasis mine.

    Someone let this...



    ... into their car to give him a ride.

    I can only hope the guy wasn't covered in blood & weapons at the time.

  7. #7
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    Re: Encouraging news about our border security.

    ooooH My, He is "Special." All that and bloody with a bloody chainsaw, a homemade sword, a hatchet, a knife AND brass knuckles..WELCOME TO AMERICA!

  8. #8
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    Re: Encouraging news about our border security.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarotbound
    This is true, however to use your same argument it's not like he had a Rubix Cube sitting on his frot seat that they took from him, everything they took can be considered a lethal weapon and these things by law have to be taken from his possession when crossing the border.
    That's simply not true. If I'm an American citizen, they can't take my guns away from me. They can't just say, "It's illegal to possess a chainsaw" when it IS perfectly legal to do so. He didn't break any laws, right? So why should his LEGALLY possessed "lethal weapons" (trees are people too!) be taken away?

    He was an American citizen who was crossing the border into America. It may be illegal to carry a chainsaw onto a plane, but he wasn't on a plane.

    They should have held him because of their reasonable suspicions.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  9. #9
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    Re: Encouraging news about our border security.

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples
    That's simply not true. If I'm an American citizen, they can't take my guns away from me. They can't just say, "It's illegal to possess a chainsaw" when it IS perfectly legal to do so. He didn't break any laws, right? So why should his LEGALLY possessed "lethal weapons" (trees are people too!) be taken away?

    He was an American citizen who was crossing the border into America. It may be illegal to carry a chainsaw onto a plane, but he wasn't on a plane.

    They should have held him because of their reasonable suspicions.
    Look i understand where your coming from,i really do however American citizen or otherwise you CANNOT cross the Canadian/American border with a gun or any other weapon, they WILL confincate it.

    Clive there are certain types of meat and meat by-products that cannot be brought across the border the Canadian Border Patrol will tell you to dispose of the meat before crossing the border,you will also have a permenant record with the Canadian Border Patrol,They can confinscate certain fruits that are not allowed into the United States or Canada.

    This person was in Canada and is subject to Canadian laws reguardless if he is an American...just because your an American and you cross the border into anothner country dosen't mean your immune to anothner Countries laws.

    The only way you can bring firearms past the Canadian border is to contact the Canadian Firearms Center beforehand and recieve a temopary PAL (possession and acquisition licence), and follow all rule reguarding storage,ect, if you do not it WILL be confinscated reguardless of you being an American Citizen or not.

    Swords,Brass Knuckles, are considered a concealed weapon and will be confincated reguardless of what side of the border your on.

    When it comes to search and seziure the Canadian Border Patrol are NOT required to have a warrant, or probable cause,the Canadian Border Patrol can sieze ANYTHING they want from your car and the Canadian Goverment gives them the right to do so,weather you feel this is right or not is irrevelant.

    Now on to reasonable suspicion....

    Clive i think you need to read the whole article....he was held briefly,fingerprints were taken,and his records were run and came back empty at that time he was not charged with any crime so they cannot hold him just because of what he had in his possession.

    We have no clue on how this man was acting with Border guards...for all we know he could've very open and forthcoming the article makes no such claims on how he was acting or if he openly told them what was in his possession or if they spotted it in his car.

    Like i said before, we had an insite into this crime that the Canadian Border Patrol did not have..we already knew what he did and i don't see how we can say that they didn't do enough when NOBODY at the time actually knew what he did except for him and the person he murdered..and i don't think either one of them would have been very forthcoming.

    They acted within the law that applies to the Canadian Border Patrol, and i don't think they sould be blamed for something they didn't even know about....again like i said before if the Canadian Border Patrol was informed about a possible murderer matching his description and they let him go ESPECIALLY with the murder weapon in his car...that is a much different story.
    An' ye harm none, do what ye will.

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  10. #10
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    Re: Encouraging news about our border security.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarot
    Clive there are certain types of meat and meat by-products that cannot be brought across the border the Canadian Border Patrol will tell you to dispose of the meat before crossing the border,you will also have a permenant record with the Canadian Border Patrol,They can confinscate certain fruits that are not allowed into the United States or Canada.

    There is a reason for that: alien fruits and vegetation can introduce diseases that current crops cannot resist. There is NO similar reason to take knives from everyone who comes into your country. Any chainsaw you have in Canada must be produced in Canada? That seems erroneous.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  11. #11
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    Re: Encouraging news about our border security.

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples
    There is a reason for that: alien fruits and vegetation can introduce diseases that current crops cannot resist. There is NO similar reason to take knives from everyone who comes into your country. Any chainsaw you have in Canada must be produced in Canada? That seems erroneous.
    yet again..weather you think there is a reason or not is irrevelant.

    This is a Canadian LAW that a form of lethal weapon CANNOT be brought into their country ESPECIALLY after 9/11 without proper paperwork it's just that simple, it's a Canadian LAW this isn't a hard rule to understand and i cannot figure out why an intelligent person such as yourself cannot seem to grasp this.

    You need paperwork and reciepts of purchace from the store in which you brought it and from the Canadian goverment.

    Tell you what, try crossing into Canada at the American border with a knife on your front seat..without the proper paperwork let's see how far you get...i can gaurntee you won't get past the border.

    This isn't a pocket knife or a box cutter were talking about here...it was a homemade knife,sword and brass knuckles and they were disposed of, pure and simple, because there ILLEGAL to have in your car even in America you CANNOT carry a knife in most states in America in which the kife is longer than 7" in length, brass knuckles are illegal in many states some don't even allow brass knuckles to be shipped by mail to your house, swords fall under the same rules as brass knuckles.

    I guess i have to emphasise this again....just because your an American Citizen does not mean your immune to anothner countries laws.It simply makes no difference to them whatsoever.

    Ok let me give you an example: i was going to visit a friend of mine that lives in Monteral since cigarettes are more expensive in Canada than they are here (for the most part) i decides to take 12 packs with me...when i reached the border they asked if i had anything to claim and i told them about my cigarettes...they confiscated two packs from me because you cannot transport over 200 cigarettes over the border....now do you consider this silly? i know i did but the law is the law reguardless of what i think.

    Now for the chainsaw argument.....did he have a reciept of purchase on him? no? well then it's confinscated, again it makes no difference what you consider to be erroneous this is simply what they are able to do supported by the Canadian Goverment....for all they know this chainsaw could've been stolen property....honsetly how would they know otherwise?

    They did everything by law that they were required to do.

    The interesting thing is that you seem to be saying "shame on you Canada for taking this man's weapons he's an American" when i'm saying "thank goodness the Canadian's were on the ball and disarmed a murderer" even it they didn't know at the time that this is what they did.
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  12. #12
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    Re: Encouraging news about our border security.

    Tarot, I'm not entirely clear, wasn't he traveling from Canada to the US? If so, then he'd be dealing with the US border control, not the Canadian. Unless I misread your statement or the article...
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    Re: Encouraging news about our border security.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iluvatar
    Tarot, I'm not entirely clear, wasn't he traveling from Canada to the US? If so, then he'd be dealing with the US border control, not the Canadian. Unless I misread your statement or the article...
    Ok let me clairfy...

    Basically he didn't cross the border yet, he was still in Canadian Territory....now US Border Control still have to follow Canadian Laws, they cannot let somebody pass simply because they are Americans, i understand this dosen't seem quite right but after 9/11 the security rules have changed dramatically.

    He would still have to show a reciept for the chainsaw and a Canadian PAL for said weapons in his possession reguardless of who stopped him and this he did not do.

    US Border Guards cannot allow a person to cross the border with illegal weapons and/or possible stolen property.

    I know for a fact that Brass Knuckles are pretty much illegal in every state to carry reguardless on your person or in a car,now as for the the knife and sword..i do know,however not exactly clear,that Maine has laws reguarding the possession of knives and swords are pretty strict i believe the blades cannot be more that 4" long on knives, and swords cannot be transported without proper forms so either way i doubt he could've brought these weapons in anyways.

    And believe me i know the chainaw argument sounds silly, believe me i do and if he came INTO Canada with this chainsaw and was actually allowed to keep it (which i highly doubt) then i could understand why people find this a bit odd as to why he wasn't able to cross the border with it.

    There is a SLIM and i do mean SLIM possibility that if he didn't have the knife,sword,and knuckles there may have been a chance of crossing the border with the chainsaw his possession but i'm still pretty sure that without a proper reciept it would've been taken away from him.

    Now i know what some people are going to say "I don't have a reciept for my luggage does that mean that can be taken from me?" well actually yes they can...if they believe it may be stolen or for any number of other reasons.
    Last edited by Tarotbound; June 8th, 2005 at 04:55 PM.
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    Re: Encouraging news about our border security.

    The incredible part of this isn't so much that he was armed to the teeth and let over the border. It's that to top it off, one of these weapons, all of which are illegal to bring into America unless declared and documented, and some not at all, was drenched in blood. Combined with the fact that he has the cold, glassy stare of a sociopath and a court date in Canada on the day he came over for assault and death threats, couldn't that be reasonably interpreted as probable cause to detain the guy, along with sword, knife, hatchet, brass knuckles and bloody chainsaw, and maybe, you know, not let him into the country?

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    Re: Encouraging news about our border security.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning
    The incredible part of this isn't so much that he was armed to the teeth and let over the border. It's that to top it off, one of these weapons, all of which are illegal to bring into America unless declared and documented, and some not at all, was drenched in blood. Combined with the fact that he has the cold, unfeeling stare of a sociopath, couldn't that be reasonably interpreted as probably cause to detain the guy, along with sword, knife, hatchet, brass knuckles and bloody chainsaw, and maybe, you know, investigate a little?
    Could you point out please the article saying that said weapons were "soaked in blood" i'm not saying that i don't believe you or anything it's just that i haven't seen any articles saying the said weapons were actually "soaked in blood" if thats the case then yeah i agree this turns into a whole other argument.

    Also i'm a bit confused...now by reading the articles i did read i was under the belief that he was in Canada for some time...at least time enough to make weapons, we can't say for certain if he actually crossed into Canada with these weapons in his car....Brass Knuckles, knife and sword is pretty easy to craft, most if not all (minus the chainsaw of course) can be made with basic sheet metal.
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    Re: Encouraging news about our border security.

    Unless it is ILLEGAL to possess a chainsaw in Canada, the Canadian border patrol cannot confiscate a chainsaw merely because the fellow was bringing it in--and there are no biological considerations, as there are with fruit. What law would have been broken if he carried a chainsaw into the U.S. from Canada, or the other way around?

    Why would they bar carrying a chainsaw across the border? You can easily buy one. There's no background check. You aren't carrying it onto a plane, which have their own restrictions about carrying weapons. Do you need a license to OWN a chainsaw in Canada? Are there restrictions on who can own a chainsaw in Canada? It seems silly to require a license to carry it over the border.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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    Re: Encouraging news about our border security.

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples
    Unless it is ILLEGAL to possess a chainsaw in Canada, the Canadian border patrol cannot confiscate a chainsaw merely because the fellow was bringing it in--and there are no biological considerations, as there are with fruit. What law would have been broken if he carried a chainsaw into the U.S. from Canada, or the other way around?
    Canadian Border Patrol can confiscate a Qwepie Doll from your car if they think they have a reason to do so
    For the last time....if he dosen't have a reciept for this chainsaw they can confincate it just under a possible suspition that it may be stolen property.
    An' ye harm none, do what ye will.

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    Re: Encouraging news about our border security.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarotbound
    Canadian Border Patrol can confiscate a Qwepie Doll from your car if they think they have a reason to do so
    For the last time....if he dosen't have a reciept for this chainsaw they can confincate it just under a possible suspition that it may be stolen property.
    How ludicrous. The police don't even need PROBABLE CAUSE or REASONABLE SUSPICION of a crime to seize your private property. Thank God that America hasn't stooped so low.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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    Re: Encouraging news about our border security.

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples
    How ludicrous. The police don't even need PROBABLE CAUSE or REASONABLE SUSPICION of a crime to seize your private property. Thank God that America hasn't stooped so low.
    America hasn't stooped so low??

    Direct quote from www.accmontreal.ca/border.html

    "Under U.S. law, as an alien detained at the border by customs or immigration,you do not have the right or priviledge of contacting your lawyer"

    So it's unfair to stop a man with weapons and take his chainsaw but it's perfectally reasonable to deny a person to be able to contact a legal representave?

    However you are allowed to contact the Canadian goverment......this is by far the dumbest thing i've ever heard.

    But in your defense Clive the Canadian Border Patrol after 9/11 have to ask either citizens of Canada or America if you own a gun....not if you have the gun on you...but if you actually own a gun...yes you read this right if you respond yes to this they have to ask you how many...stupid isn't it?

    The only reason i know about Canadian Border laws/questions is that i travel back and forth to Canada ALOT (at least once a month if not more) and i carry a Athame which is a small unsharpened dagger used in my religon for certain rituals EVERY time i cross the border i have to claim it..
    Since it's unsharpned and used for religous purposes which both Canada and the US respect it's considered ceremonial and they don't take it from me...but they could if they wanted to.

    Now how about this for a huge contradiction in terms.....Hemlock is also used for ceremonial practicesl but i cannot bring this over the border because it's a plant. ;?

    Guess my religon only goes so far as the law is concerned....
    Last edited by Tarotbound; June 9th, 2005 at 12:00 AM.
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    Re: Encouraging news about our border security.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarot
    "Under U.S. law, as an alien detained at the border by customs or immigration,you do not have the right or priviledge of contacting your lawyer"

    So it's unfair to stop a man with weapons and take his chainsaw but it's perfectally reasonable to deny a person to be able to contact a legal representave?
    I take "the right or priviledge of contacting your lawyer" to mean that the government will provide you with a way to contact your lawyer. I do not think that the government would stop you from calling your lawyer with your own phone. They would simply not have to give you access to their phones to do it.

    If, however, it is true that you are not allowed to contact a lawyer through any means, your assessment that this is "by far the dumbest thing I've ever heard" would not be very far off the mark.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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