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  1. #21
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    Re: Logical Fallacies

    Quote Originally Posted by GodlessSkept
    This is wrong. You are just commiting said fallacy yourself! Hitler spoke publicly of his affinity/affiliation for God and christ. He even supported the intermingling of Bible study and prayer in public schools. That his interpretations disagree with yours no more excludes him from Christianity than it excludes any TBN preacher or those who blow up clinics to stop abortion.
    You are fine to believe that Hitler is wrong in his interpretations but you must realize that NO RELIGION including christianity has some objectively discernable teachings/rules by which everyone agrees.
    A religion doesn't have to have 100% agreement in all counts. In fact, no philosophy or belief system is subjec to such standards...not even the subject of philosophy, or the theory of fallacious reasoning.

    What you are saying is:

    Someone calls himself a Muslim. He believes in Allah. However, he doesn't believe in practicing the 5 pillars...and believes that Allah is merely one of 2,439 Gods that he worships. Also, when he dies, he will be reincarnated into a camel, will commune with ants, and will have divine knowledge.

    Any reasonable, objective, learned individual...will properly and accurately declare...this man is not a Muslim.

    But you disagree. You would say that he is...just because 1) he says he is, and 2) he believes at least SOME part of the philosophy, is this correct?

    Very well....I am an atheist. However, I believe in God. I'm an atheist who believes in God, and no one can tell me otherwise.

    Frankly...it's absurd. If anyone could be anything they wanted to be simply by declaration (and not by qualification or practice), this would be one jacked up world.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Logical Fallacies

    Quote Originally Posted by GodlessSkept
    ANYTHING can be supported through selective interpretation of the Bible! Slavery in America was justified by scripture(and in that case the scripture in question was pretty hard to deny as being supportive of slavery!) Gay rights/Gay eradication. Womens' lib/womens' subjugation. Mercy/merciless retribution. etc.

    By Hitler's interpretation, the jews were coniving schemers who murdered Christ. As ridiculous as you and I think that is, it IS supported in the Bible!
    Wrong again. Simply because someone claims it is, doesn't make it so. Truth is not relative, it is absolute. Truth corresponds to reality, not one's perception of it. If you would like to make the case that Hitler was justified through Christianity using Christian doctrine, go for it (in a different thread). You'll quickly find out how wrong such a claim is.
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  3. #23
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    Re: Logical Fallacies

    Also, your "Scotsman" fallacy doesn't apply here in the least. The reason it is a fallacy, is because of what it is that makes one a Scotsman. Likewise, what makes someone of a particular faith...is the doctrine and philosophies of that particular faith.

    What makes a Scotsman, is being born Scotland. What someone drinks...has nothing to do with where one is born. That is why it is a fallacy. One is "qualified" as a Scotsman by certain variables...and drinking, is not one of them. Likewise, one is "qualified" as a member of a belief system, through certain variables...and claiming that a few of those variables are "accepted" when in all actuality it takes the whole...is fallacious reasoning.
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  4. #24
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    Re: Logical Fallacies

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    A religion doesn't have to have 100% agreement in all counts. In fact, no philosophy or belief system is subjec to such standards...not even the subject of philosophy, or the theory of fallacious reasoning.

    What you are saying is:

    Someone calls himself a Muslim. He believes in Allah. However, he doesn't believe in practicing the 5 pillars...and believes that Allah is merely one of 2,439 Gods that he worships. Also, when he dies, he will be reincarnated into a camel, will commune with ants, and will have divine knowledge.

    Any reasonable, objective, learned individual...will properly and accurately declare...this man is not a Muslim.

    But you disagree. You would say that he is...just because 1) he says he is, and 2) he believes at least SOME part of the philosophy, is this correct?

    Very well....I am an atheist. However, I believe in God. I'm an atheist who believes in God, and no one can tell me otherwise.

    Frankly...it's absurd. If anyone could be anything they wanted to be simply by declaration (and not by qualification or practice), this would be one jacked up world.
    Where does one draw a definitive line though? Is someone who is not fully in touch with Christian doctrine, but follows as closely as he/she can, a true Christian?

  5. #25
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    Re: Logical Fallacies

    That would be confusing "sincerity" with "actuality". I could sincerely believe that the gun I was playing with was unloaded...but if it went off, it would have been because it was loaded, and I was in error. Both are important...but when the object of sincerity is not true, then no amount of sincerity will compensate.

    Hitler failed at living out the 2 greatest commandments given by Christ, to man. According to Jesus, when he was asked the question by the Pharisees of what commandments were the greatest:

    1) The greatest commandment is to Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and stength.
    2) The 2nd greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself.

    Furthermore, Christianity is more than 'belief", it is a practice. What makes one a Christian, is not just belief...but also emulation of Christ. Of course, all Christians fall short. But those who claim they are Christians while ignoring those commandments, and refusing to emulate Christ's example, are simply not Christian.

    btw...I am now Hindu...but I am still only monotheistic. I like this game. No rules, no objectivity, no qualification of adherence.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Logical Fallacies

    I'm not talking about Hitler. This is Godless PAGAN. I'm asking a generic question.

  7. #27
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    Re: Logical Fallacies

    I know. And I answered in the first part of the post. I provided Hitler as an example of how it is applicable. In other words...it is possible that Hitler thought he was Christian...but it is quite obvious that he wasn't (I'd love to see someone attempt to defend that position though).
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  8. #28
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    Re: Logical Fallacies

    No thanks. But I'm truly wondering where to draw the line on such a subjective claim. How do you define a True Christian (tm) ? How different does one have to be from you do disqualify themselves? Would all True Christians (tm) regard you as one of their own?

  9. #29
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    Re: Logical Fallacies

    I can see this thread is going to have to be split. I would start up another thread on that one...it would derail this existing thread moreso than it already has been.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Logical Fallacies

    I can dig it.

  11. #31
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    Re: Logical Fallacies

    Will attend to the other stuff in the new thread. As for this:


    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    Also, your "Scotsman" fallacy doesn't apply here in the least. The reason it is a fallacy, is because of what it is that makes one a Scotsman. Likewise, what makes someone of a particular faith...is the doctrine and philosophies of that particular faith.[

    What makes a Scotsman, is being born Scotland. What someone drinks...has nothing to do with where one is born. That is why it is a fallacy. One is "qualified" as a Scotsman by certain variables...and drinking, is not one of them. Likewise, one is "qualified" as a member of a belief system, through certain variables...and claiming that a few of those variables are "accepted" when in all actuality it takes the whole...is fallacious reasoning.
    Yes, just like I said. Why are you stating all of this which I have already stateda s if I had somehow gotten it wrong?

    What makes one a Scotsman is being born in Scotland. Not what he drinks. Not what he worships or does not worship. Not what kind of music he enjoys.

    Likewise, what makes a christian a christian is belief in Christ. Someone who believes in Christ but has a wildly different take on how the Bible is interpreted is STILL a christian, just an odd one of a sect/denomination which has few adherants among christians.

    Hitler was a christian. Therefore, anyone saying "That's not an example of a christioan behaving badly because he wasn't a TRUE christian" is pulling the 'No True Scotsman'.

  12. #32
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    Re: Logical Fallacies

    Hell, you will split the thread anyways so...


    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    A religion doesn't have to have 100% agreement in all counts.
    EXACTLY MY POINT! You would be hard pressed to find two chrisitans who agree on all points. Hitler's brand of Christianity(catholicism with some pagan influences) was different than Southern Baptist christianity or Pentacostals.
    If you will disqualify Hitler as a Christian then you have to disqualify the overwhelming majority of christians who disagree with you in the details! This is EXACTLY what the 'No True Scotsman' is about! It is a fallacy to assert that someone is not a 'true whatever' if they do not agree with YOU on 100% of details!



    In fact, no philosophy or belief system is subjec to such standards...not even the subject of philosophy, or the theory of fallacious reasoning.
    ???

    What is your point?

    What you are saying is:

    Someone calls himself a Muslim. He believes in Allah. However, he doesn't believe in practicing the 5 pillars...and believes that Allah is merely one of 2,439 Gods that he worships. Also, when he dies, he will be reincarnated into a camel, will commune with ants, and will have divine knowledge.
    Wrong. That person who combines every religious teaching and theistic claim he comes across is, first of all a polytheist(Islam is a monotheistic religion) but if he held Allah in highest regard then he could be called a muslim or at least a muslim-polytheist-Hindu-Taoist. In any case this is a strawman as you are trying to mischaracterise my position in the most ridiculous way you can in order to make it easier to tear down.

    Any reasonable, objective, learned individual...will properly and accurately declare...this man is not a Muslim.
    Another fallacy! Everyone who knows the name of this logical fallacy raise your hand!

    Hint - You mention it in the OP of this thread

    But you disagree. You would say that he is...just because 1) he says he is, and 2) he believes at least SOME part of the philosophy, is this correct?
    Just for argument's sake, no. I would say he was a muslim(if I did say such a thing) because he believes "God(Allah) is greatest", regardless of what else he believes.
    Other muslims may or may not like his brand of Islam.

    Very well....I am an atheist. However, I believe in God. I'm an atheist who believes in God, and no one can tell me otherwise.
    Atheism is, quite literally "without gods". If you tried to call yourself an atheist while worshipping gods it would make no more sense than calling a triangle, a circle.
    At the core of atheism is lack of belief in gods. At the core of christianity is belief in/worship of christ(some christians do not even believe most of the Bible!).
    You cannot apply all of YOUR particular preferences and interpretations accross the board to all christians.

    Frankly...it's absurd. If anyone could be anything they wanted to be simply by declaration (and not by qualification or practice), this would be one jacked up world.
    It IS one jacked up world and a big part of the problem is all of these various religious beliefs at odds with one another! But this is a strawman again because I was not advocating such a position.

    Yes, it is absurd.

  13. #33
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    Re: Logical Fallacies

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    I know. And I answered in the first part of the post. I provided Hitler as an example of how it is applicable. In other words...it is possible that Hitler thought he was Christian...but it is quite obvious that he wasn't (I'd love to see someone attempt to defend that position though).
    Obvious to YOU, not the Nazis who followed Adolph. I would assume that Jim Jones was "obviously" not a christian to YOU but the residents of Jonestown disagreed.


    As Gaius Ceaser over at B-net says(paraphrased), I do not have a "Christianometer" that can detect which christians are true christians adn neither do YOU. You make arbitrary judgements based on YOUR convictions. I simply break it down to the core tenet(s) and mostly have to take christians' word for it when they calim to be a christian. If they make it clear that they do not adhere to the core tenet of christianity(believing in christ) then I make a judgement that they are confused and not christian(and STILL this is not an objective fact!). If someone claims to be an atheist but they worship one or more gods then this is illogical because atheism has only ONE requisite inherent...lack of god-belief/worship(depends on context).
    Christianity itself, going beyond the simple belief in Christ, is not like atheism because there are thousands of subjective details, an extensive code of morals/behaviors, taboos, laws, heirarchies, mythologies etc. and which ones apply and do not apply is a matter of individual(or denominational) preference/conviction/interpretation.
    Atheism has no such quandry(one reason why your "I will call myself an atheist" bit didn't work). I would not and CAN NOT call myself a christian, because I don't believe in or worship Christ and that is the ONLY thing that logically prevents me from doing so.

    You must also remember that words shift meaning with context and usage. An ethnic jew is still a jew even if he is an atheist.

    To sum up, these things can only be objectively defined in so far as there is no logical contradiction between the object and what the person is identifying the object as. For example, a man calling himself a tree or someone calling three apples a "pair".

  14. #34
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    Re: Logical Fallacies

    Quote Originally Posted by GodlessSkept
    Likewise, what makes a christian a christian is belief in Christ. Someone who believes in Christ but has a wildly different take on how the Bible is interpreted is STILL a christian, just an odd one of a sect/denomination which has few adherants among christians.

    Hitler was a christian. Therefore, anyone saying "That's not an example of a christioan behaving badly because he wasn't a TRUE christian" is pulling the 'No True Scotsman'.
    Wrong. Your problem here, is that of equivocation. It isn't mere "belief" in Christ...for even Demons believe in Christ. It is believing in Christ, his philosophies, who he is, putting your faith in him (which results in Christ's emulation).

    Now...in the new thread, when you can explain how Hitler was emulating Christ and his actions are supported through Christian doctrine and scripture...then and only then will you have supported that Hitler was a Christian.

    Again...CLAIMING it and SUPPORTING it are 2 different things. I await your SUPPORT in a new thread.
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  15. #35
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    Re: Logical Fallacies

    Quote Originally Posted by Dictionary.com
    Chris·tian ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krschn)

    1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
    2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.
    If we use definition 1, we can say that Hitler was probably Christian. On the other hand, given definition 2, I don't think so. Here are some biased samples for further depth into the topic:
    http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm
    http://www.jews-for-allah.org/messia...storywithjews/
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mis...ca_hitler.html
    http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles...le.asp?ID=4127
    http://www.lava.net/~hcssc/Hitler.html
    http://liberalslikechrist.org/Cathol...lersFaith.html

    However, I really don't think it matters in the end what Hitler was. So, stop arguing over something that is not resolvable!
    孟柏民
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  16. #36
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    Re: Logical Fallacies

    Hitler fails on both those counts NE. You say that he could be Christian if using #1. OK, in what way did he follow the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus?
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  17. #37
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    Re: Logical Fallacies

    Quote Originally Posted by Apok
    OK, in what way did he follow the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus?
    Hitler was a Catholic. He may have had incorrect aims, but he was still part of the church. He followed the religion, not the teachings.

    Edit: You know, I should really follow my own advice.
    孟柏民
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  18. #38
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    Re: Logical Fallacies

    Jesus was a gentle man who taught love of God and neighbor, who said to turn the other cheek and give of oneself sacrificially. If that belief is "Christian", then no one (not even the strongest of anti-Christians here) could claim Hitler was a Christian. If on the other hand, one classifies Christianity as any view which is derived from the Christian story, no matter how faithful or how perverted--however logical or illogical (or pathological), then Hitler did consider himself an admirer of Jesus (perverted though his view was), although the religion we popularly call Christianity disgusted him.

    What he believed and practiced, was not Christianity.

    "Christianity is an invention of sick brains," Adolf Hitler, 13 December 1941.

    "So it's not opportune to hurl ourselves now into a struggle with the Churches. The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death," Adolf Hitler, 14 October 1941.

    Since no one else is starting a thread about it...I'll just close the argument up with this:

    Hitler severed ties with the Church post-WW I. He wasn't a Christian. He denounced his faith, denounced Christianity, and didn't believe that Christ's sacrifice was the focal point of Christianity (which it is).
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  19. #39
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    Re: Logical Fallacies

    btw...I'm now a Hare Krishna...but I worship the Easter Bunny. I still love these rules you guys create.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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  20. #40
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

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    Re: Logical Fallacies

    SIGH!!!!!!!!

    Sometimes, I dispair....

    http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...ead.php?t=1351

 

 
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