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  1. #1
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    Canada protests outsourcing to the US

    This is actually pretty clever. Now the banks will probably institute rules against small payments made in pennies.

    Miffed man pays bank bill a penny at a time
    By Kamakshi Tandon Fri Jan 6, 9:42 AM ET


    TORONTO (Reuters) - A Canadian credit card holder is putting a new twist on an old trick practiced by disgruntled debtors -- repaying his bill in pennies to maximize the collector's inconvenience.
    Unhappy when his Canadian bank began outsourcing some of its credit card processing to the United States, the man lodged his protest via the bank's online payment system, jamming its computers by making dozens of tiny payments a day.
    Don Rogers said he was worried that anti-terrorism laws in the United States could allow the U.S. government to access his data without his consent.
    "I don't want the CIA or George Bush to know how many cases of Viagra I bought last week, or what church or charities I donate to," he told Reuters.
    Rogers said his card has since been canceled by Vancouver-based Citizens Bank, but he will continue paying his remaining balance of C$1,000 ($860) one little bit at a time.
    He has also decided to run in the January 23 federal election as a candidate for a fringe party that wants to abolish the North American Free Trade Agreement linking Canada, the United States and Mexico.
    Citizens Bank spokesman Rolf Baumbusch said such outsourcing was commonplace among Canadian banks because there were "very limited opportunities" for doing the work in Canada. Canada's federal privacy commissioner has ruled the practice is legal as long as customers are informed.
    But Canadians should be aware of cross-border privacy issues, said Arthur Cockfield, a law professor at Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario
    "More and more our personal information is being rendered into digital formats and zips around the world," he said, adding that any credit card data sent to the United States is subject to U.S. law.
    Roger's initial attempt at paying in pennies produced a statement over 32 feet long, according to media reports.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060106/od_nm/pennies_dc


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  2. #2
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    Re: Canada protests outsourcing to the US

    I like the way he protests, and am joining him on the NAFTA hate train. With regards to outsourcing, if a company can increase their profits by sending companies overseas they would be stupid to not do it. That's what people need to understand. Companies really don't care about you. You will still use their products and they know this, but it looks better to be "consumer friendly".
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." ~Bertrand Russell

  3. #3
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    Re: Canada protests outsourcing to the US

    Back in the 1960s we had a spate of imaginative protests over banking and tax charges; a farmer wrote out his bank cheque on the rump of one of his (live) cows and delivered it in person.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  4. #4
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    Re: Canada protests outsourcing to the US

    I have no objection to outsourcing, as long as corporations exercise a certain amount of social responsibility in doing so. If it can pay labourers $1.50 less an hour in a foreign country, great. If doing so entails employing children in below-humane conditions, I think that's wrong, though not illegal.

  5. #5
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    Re: Canada protests outsourcing to the US

    Quote Originally Posted by starcreator
    I have no objection to outsourcing, as long as corporations exercise a certain amount of social responsibility in doing so. If it can pay labourers $1.50 less an hour in a foreign country, great. If doing so entails employing children in below-humane conditions, I think that's wrong, though not illegal.
    Do you honestly believe that our wages are lower than Canada's? The amount of banking being outsourced to the US is really insignificant here and I don't see the reason for a protest.

    Canada does outsource trash/garbage that it doesn't want in its' landfills - (link to "Wasting of Michigan"). This actually took legislation to defeat, but it did keep our political people busy - http://levin.senate.gov/newsroom/release.cfm?id=209677
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  6. #6
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    Re: Canada protests outsourcing to the US

    Snoops - You can always tip it into the Great Lakes again!!!

    ps. Can the UK give you some of it's waste 'glow in the dark' stuff as well?
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  7. #7
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    Re: Canada protests outsourcing to the US

    Quote Originally Posted by SnoopCitySid
    Do you honestly believe that our wages are lower than Canada's? The amount of banking being outsourced to the US is really insignificant here and I don't see the reason for a protest.

    Canada does outsource trash/garbage that it doesn't want in its' landfills - (link to "Wasting of Michigan"). This actually took legislation to defeat, but it did keep our political people busy - http://levin.senate.gov/newsroom/release.cfm?id=209677
    Aren't your wages lower than ours? You're dollar's fallen like 50% to ours in the last little while. I'm not sure how our average wages would compare. I'll have to find some stats sometime.

  8. #8
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    Re: Canada protests outsourcing to the US

    Quote Originally Posted by starcreator
    Aren't your wages lower than ours? You're dollar's fallen like 50% to ours in the last little while. I'm not sure how our average wages would compare. I'll have to find some stats sometime.
    Here are the US figures:

    The average amounts of wages calculated directly from the SSA data were $32,678.48 and $34,197.63 for 2003 and 2004, respectively. To determine the national average wage index for 2004 at a level that is consistent with the national average wage indexing series for prior years, we multiply the 2003 national average wage index of $34,064.95 by the percentage increase in average wages from 2003 to 2004 (based on SSA-tabulated wage data). In other words, the national average wage index for 2004 is $34,064.95 times $34,197.63 divided by $32,678.48, which equals $35,648.55.
    The complete average wage indexing series is shown below.

    National average wage indexing series, 1951-2004
    YearIndex
    19512,799.16
    19522,973.32
    19533,139.44
    19543,155.64
    19553,301.44
    19563,532.36
    19573,641.72
    19583,673.80
    19593,855.80
    19604,007.12
    19614,086.76
    19624,291.40
    19634,396.64
    19644,576.32
    19654,658.72
    19664,938.36
    19675,213.44
    19685,571.76
    19695,893.76
    19706,186.24
    YearIndex
    19716,497.08
    19727,133.80
    19737,580.16
    19748,030.76
    19758,630.92
    19769,226.48
    19779,779.44
    197810,556.03
    197911,479.46
    198012,513.46
    198113,773.10
    198214,531.34
    198315,239.24
    198416,135.07
    198516,822.51
    198617,321.82
    198718,426.51
    198819,334.04
    198920,099.55
    199021,027.98
    YearIndex
    199121,811.60
    199222,935.42
    199323,132.67
    199423,753.53
    199524,705.66
    199625,913.90
    199727,426.00
    199828,861.44
    199930,469.84
    200032,154.82
    200132,921.92
    200233,252.09
    200334,064.95
    200435,648.55



    http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/AWI.html

    I found this regarding Canadian wages:

    Average Canadian family has more disposable income than Americans, but the gap is closing

    By: Ish Theilheimer

    Who gets the most after taxes, Americans or Canadians? A new study shows that contrary to rhetoric of the tax-cut lobby, average Canadians take home more than or about the same as average Americans. Canadian families may be losing ground, though.
    New data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) confirms this. On February 8, OECD published Taxing Wages in OECD countires 1998/99 [http://www.oecd.org/news_and_events/...0-02a.htm#top]
    "Average" Canadian wage: $30,200. Average take-home pay: $24,764. "Average" American wage: $29,076. Average take-home pay: $24,424. Difference: $340.


    As it does every year, this report looked at wages and disposable income for the "single individual at the income level of the average production worker."
    Its report is pretty clear. The "average production worker" in Canada earns $30,200 in "dollars with equal purchasing power," and gets to keep 82 percent of that after taxes and social security contributions. So the Canadian average production worker takes home $24,764 hypothetical loonies.
    The average American production workers earns $29,076 and gets to keep 84 percent - 2 percent more take-home, but a lower average wage. He or she takes home $24,424, or $340 less. For all practical purposes, there is no difference at that level.
    Canadian high-income earners do pay more taxes than their US counterparts. This was shown by a 1998 Statistics Canada study that compared US and Canadian disposable income in 1975, 1985, and 1995. For middle-income earners, it showed the differences are slight.
    Studies consistently show that after-tax income for average Canadian worker is higher, but Canadian social program cuts mean Americans are closing the gap


    "With respect to family incomes, the most striking result is that a substantial fraction of Canadian families was absolutely better off in 1995 then their US counterparts at similar points in the income spectrum." The exact difference varies greatly depending on which method is used to estimate the purchasing power of US and Canadian currency.
    "Indeed, roughly half of Canadian families had disposable incomes in 1995 that gave them higher purchasing power than otherwise comparable U.S. families," concluded the study comparing the disposable income of Canadian and U.S. families.
    Scott W. Donaldson is a Canadian and a Straight Goods correspondent. Last week he wrote to us from Houston Texas saying when he went to work in the US, he was "surprised how much all the hidden costs of living in the 'Great US of A' added up."
    He say that when he finished adding up "the cost of contracting your own garbage removal, your own sewer service company, fees for water, electricity, gas and mail delivery," it offset any gain in wages he got by moving south. "Wow, I had no idea how little of my paycheque I'd get to see after bills got paid."
    American upper-income earners pay less taxes than their Canadian counterparts. But for the middle class, the tax saving is offset by health care, education, and other social benefits. Unfortunately for Canadians, these are the very benefits being cut federally and provincially. Tax cuts and deficit reduction take money and benefits directly from consumers.
    Economist Mike McCracken of Informetrica in Ottawa is concerned about the trends. "Whatever it was 20 years ago, we're getting less," says McCracken. He believes that relative to Americans, average Canadian families have less disposable income than 20 years ago before cuts to social programs began in earnest in Canada.
    He cites the rising costs of pharmaceuticals and university tuition as examples of rising living costs cutting into disposable income in Canada. Americans traditionally receive less from their government in social benefits, but they have suffered fewer cuts in the past 20 years than Canadians.

    Related Article
    Whose stub is bigger?

    http://www.straightgoods.com/item103.shtml

    additional Canadian info here: http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/ind01/l3...tm?hili_labr69
    Last edited by Snoop; January 8th, 2006 at 02:59 PM.
    While laughing at others stupidity, you may want to contemplate your own comedic talents. (link)
    Disclaimer: This information is being provided for informational, educational, and entertainment purposes only.

  9. #9
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    Re: Canada protests outsourcing to the US

    Quote Originally Posted by SnoopCitySid
    Here are the US figures:

    The average amounts of wages calculated directly from the SSA data were $32,678.48 and $34,197.63 for 2003 and 2004, respectively. To determine the national average wage index for 2004 at a level that is consistent with the national average wage indexing series for prior years, we multiply the 2003 national average wage index of $34,064.95 by the percentage increase in average wages from 2003 to 2004 (based on SSA-tabulated wage data). In other words, the national average wage index for 2004 is $34,064.95 times $34,197.63 divided by $32,678.48, which equals $35,648.55.
    The complete average wage indexing series is shown below.



    National average wage indexing series, 1951-2004
    YearIndex
    19512,799.16
    19522,973.32
    19533,139.44
    19543,155.64
    19553,301.44
    19563,532.36
    19573,641.72
    19583,673.80
    19593,855.80
    19604,007.12
    19614,086.76
    19624,291.40
    19634,396.64
    19644,576.32
    19654,658.72
    19664,938.36
    19675,213.44
    19685,571.76
    19695,893.76
    19706,186.24
    YearIndex
    19716,497.08
    19727,133.80
    19737,580.16
    19748,030.76
    19758,630.92
    19769,226.48
    19779,779.44
    197810,556.03
    197911,479.46
    198012,513.46
    198113,773.10
    198214,531.34
    198315,239.24
    198416,135.07
    198516,822.51
    198617,321.82
    198718,426.51
    198819,334.04
    198920,099.55
    199021,027.98
    YearIndex
    199121,811.60
    199222,935.42
    199323,132.67
    199423,753.53
    199524,705.66
    199625,913.90
    199727,426.00
    199828,861.44
    199930,469.84
    200032,154.82
    200132,921.92
    200233,252.09
    200334,064.95
    200435,648.55



    http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/AWI.html

    I found this regarding Canadian wages:

    Average Canadian family has more disposable income than Americans, but the gap is closing

    By: Ish Theilheimer

    Who gets the most after taxes, Americans or Canadians? A new study shows that contrary to rhetoric of the tax-cut lobby, average Canadians take home more than or about the same as average Americans. Canadian families may be losing ground, though.
    New data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) confirms this. On February 8, OECD published Taxing Wages in OECD countires 1998/99 [www.oecd.org/news_and_events/publish/pb00-02a.htm#top]
    "Average" Canadian wage: $30,200. Average take-home pay: $24,764. "Average" American wage: $29,076. Average take-home pay: $24,424. Difference: $340.


    As it does every year, this report looked at wages and disposable income for the "single individual at the income level of the average production worker."
    Its report is pretty clear. The "average production worker" in Canada earns $30,200 in "dollars with equal purchasing power," and gets to keep 82 percent of that after taxes and social security contributions. So the Canadian average production worker takes home $24,764 hypothetical loonies.
    The average American production workers earns $29,076 and gets to keep 84 percent - 2 percent more take-home, but a lower average wage. He or she takes home $24,424, or $340 less. For all practical purposes, there is no difference at that level.
    Canadian high-income earners do pay more taxes than their US counterparts. This was shown by a 1998 Statistics Canada study that compared US and Canadian disposable income in 1975, 1985, and 1995. For middle-income earners, it showed the differences are slight.
    Studies consistently show that after-tax income for average Canadian worker is higher, but Canadian social program cuts mean Americans are closing the gap


    "With respect to family incomes, the most striking result is that a substantial fraction of Canadian families was absolutely better off in 1995 then their US counterparts at similar points in the income spectrum." The exact difference varies greatly depending on which method is used to estimate the purchasing power of US and Canadian currency.
    "Indeed, roughly half of Canadian families had disposable incomes in 1995 that gave them higher purchasing power than otherwise comparable U.S. families," concluded the study comparing the disposable income of Canadian and U.S. families.
    Scott W. Donaldson is a Canadian and a Straight Goods correspondent. Last week he wrote to us from Houston Texas saying when he went to work in the US, he was "surprised how much all the hidden costs of living in the 'Great US of A' added up."
    He say that when he finished adding up "the cost of contracting your own garbage removal, your own sewer service company, fees for water, electricity, gas and mail delivery," it offset any gain in wages he got by moving south. "Wow, I had no idea how little of my paycheque I'd get to see after bills got paid."
    American upper-income earners pay less taxes than their Canadian counterparts. But for the middle class, the tax saving is offset by health care, education, and other social benefits. Unfortunately for Canadians, these are the very benefits being cut federally and provincially. Tax cuts and deficit reduction take money and benefits directly from consumers.
    Economist Mike McCracken of Informetrica in Ottawa is concerned about the trends. "Whatever it was 20 years ago, we're getting less," says McCracken. He believes that relative to Americans, average Canadian families have less disposable income than 20 years ago before cuts to social programs began in earnest in Canada.
    He cites the rising costs of pharmaceuticals and university tuition as examples of rising living costs cutting into disposable income in Canada. Americans traditionally receive less from their government in social benefits, but they have suffered fewer cuts in the past 20 years than Canadians.

    Related Article
    Whose stub is bigger?

    http://www.straightgoods.com/item103.shtml
    Remember that this was back in 98/99 when the US dollar was $1.50 to $1 CDN. Now it's only around $1.15 to $1, so that would raise our relative incomes greatly over those of Americans. Canadian companies can also pay less to an American to generate the same take home pay because of lower American taxes and fewer American social clawbacks.

    In any case, even 6 years ago, we see that our incomes were higher and consequently companies would save money by outsourcing to the US.

  10. #10
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    Re: Canada protests outsourcing to the US

    Over in the UK the average income for full-time workers in 2005 was £22,900pa. ($1.77 per £1) This figure does not include higher salaried groups.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  11. #11
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    Re: Canada protests outsourcing to the US

    Quote Originally Posted by SnoopCitySid
    Do you honestly believe that our wages are lower than Canada's? The amount of banking being outsourced to the US is really insignificant here and I don't see the reason for a protest.
    The US certainly has less labour regulations than Canada, so it wouldn't surprise me if it were cheaper for companies to do some operations in the US. Especially if it is very low paying work, since Canada probably has a minimum wage that is relatively high.

  12. #12
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    Re: Canada protests outsourcing to the US

    Funny to think of countries having problems with outsourcing to us. Outsourcing has been seen by many as a problem or at least a potential one here for quite a while.

  13. #13
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    Re: Canada protests outsourcing to the US

    Here in the UK a lot of the 'call centres' were outsourced, but companies have found the exercise to be fiscally counter-productive and are returning to British based centres.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  14. #14
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    Re: Canada protests outsourcing to the US

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning
    Funny to think of countries having problems with outsourcing to us. Outsourcing has been seen by many as a problem or at least a potential one here for quite a while.
    Mercedes outsources Jobs to the US all the time. It's good for business. Some guy in Canada protesting because the company dealing with his cash is using the US because it might be cheaper somehow needs to get in line with people complaining about the outsourcing of tech support to places like India or other countries with other jobs.

    It's common. It's good for business. And with different economies, everyone is outsourcing something to some other place somewhere. So there's really not a job lossage, just a job changeage.
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

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    Re: Canada protests outsourcing to the US

    Why would ANYONE complain about outsourcing? It's called comparative advantage. It's what every functioning economy is based on. I guess you'll complain if you're the one who's asking above the fair-market wage for your labor and a company can get it cheaper somewhere else; oh well, that's why competition rocks.
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    MrMeepers protests Canada itself

    It seems his main focus is the whole issue on privacy...if he doesn't like his bank's outsourcing, switch banks. If all the banks already outsource to the US: Canada has officially become a territory, an upgrade for sure.
    meep

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    Re: Canada protests outsourcing to the US

    CS - When it comes to the outsourcing of sensitive information such as banking and taxation our domestic protections and controls come up against other cultures, interpretation and the vaguries of foreign laws and changes of government legislation. It is one thing to give up our manufacturing base, it is another issue altogether to pass over personal (sensitive) information on large sections of our own communities.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

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    Re: Canada protests outsourcing to the US

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde
    Mercedes outsources Jobs to the US all the time. It's good for business. Some guy in Canada protesting because the company dealing with his cash is using the US because it might be cheaper somehow needs to get in line with people complaining about the outsourcing of tech support to places like India or other countries with other jobs.

    It's common. It's good for business. And with different economies, everyone is outsourcing something to some other place somewhere. So there's really not a job lossage, just a job changeage.
    Oh I'm not an outsourcing opponent, just observing the irony since many if not most in the US think outsourcing is a problem. In the long run it helps efficiency and is better for everyone, but in the short run it leaves domestic workers jobless, and that's what they're opposed to.

  19. #19
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    Re: Canada protests outsourcing to the US

    While I could care less about outsourcing... I hate NAFTA, so I agree w/ this little Canadian dude.

    George Bush/CIA/FBI/USA gov should not have the ability to watch us at a whim.

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    Re: Canada protests outsourcing to the US

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldPhoenix
    I hate NAFTA, so I agree w/ this little Canadian dude.
    Please explain how free trade hurts anyone.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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