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  1. #1
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    To admit to having been wrong...

    Hi there folks. I've not had much to say for a long while, since (debatably) losing the death penalty debate. I've read many of your postings, and have admired much of what many of you have to say, and none of what some of you have to say.

    Recently, I was very impressed when Mr. ODN, Apok, when he reversed himself on his opinion of the Bush administration. Although not explicitly acknowledging the impact fellow debators have had on this change in perspective, it surely had to have been a moment, a metamorphosis, that was catalyzed by regular participation within his creation, something of an apogee for Apok's ODN.

    His very honest volte-face is a sadly race occurrence. I wonder whether others would willingly contribute moments when they've been wrong, and describe the manner in which they were made to realise it?

    For me, the wool was once pulled from my eyes when I researched poverty statistics in the U.S., and came across this by the Heritage Foundation.

    Although there are areas of the country where life has been well documented as undeniably difficult (pre- and post-Katrina Mississippi river valley/delta, East Kentucky/West Virginian Appalachia, inner-city ghettos) and there are certainly places where it has yet to be widely reported, 'poverty' statistics are compiled according to an anachronistic idea of household expenditures where food compromises a theoretical 33% of expenditures, leading somehow to a 2002 estimation of 35 million 'poor' Americans... according to the Heritage people:

    Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.

    Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.

    Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.

    The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)

    Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.

    Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.

    Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.

    Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.

    This is certainly not to say that I believe there are no poor Americans, or that their number is insignificantly small, but, convinced that the Heritage numbers are 'on the money', it is unconscionable to believe America as having 35 million 'poor' people, a 'fact' I once used in argument, and since have forsaken.

    Nobody pointed me to this research, so the only credit for my change of opinion can go to the simple statistics provided by the Heritage Foundation, and I honestly can't think of every having been persuaded here at ODN that I was wrong. (Please, this is not an opportunity for any of you to try)

    So I ask you if you've got any stories of revelation that you'd like to share... please do.
    "We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools" -~- Martin Luther King, Jr.

  2. #2
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    Re: To admit to having been wrong...

    This happens all the time.....with my parents. The older I get the more I realize just how ignorant I am, and just how correct they were about so many issues.
    I think so many debates here are purely opinion, It's very difficult to change someones deep rooted opinions, but that doesn't mean I have not learned to see something through someone elses eyes.

    Took Apok long enough on that Bush thing (lol)

  3. #3
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    Re: To admit to having been wrong...

    I've conceded many an argument here (for many reasons, including "I was wrong"). It isn't a rare occurance.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  4. #4
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    Re: To admit to having been wrong...

    I never have a problem admitting I'm wrong. If that were ever the case, that is.
    Hyde and Sylouette
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  5. #5
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    Re: To admit to having been wrong...

    I concede on occasion.
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

  6. #6
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    Re: To admit to having been wrong...

    Welcome back Nouvelain. Personally I don't have a problem admitting I am wrong if that is how I see things. It is one way of learning that perhaps I am not infallible in all my relecting and study. Hang it all, none of us can get things right all of the time. If new information hits my neuronal networks and tells me the old stuff already there is redundant, so be it. It seems stupid to me to go into 'denial' mode and fight on against that new 'reality'.

    Heck, if science never admitted to being wrong from time-to-time we would still be back in the 'Dark Ages'.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  7. #7
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    Re: To admit to having been wrong...

    Whenever I feel that another debater has found my reasoning to be faulty, I am forced to reexamine, so I typically will admit when I find that I am wrong. Just how often that is...I'm not sure...I haven't kept track.
    孟柏民
    Formerly Neverending (for all you old-timers)

  8. #8
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    Re: To admit to having been wrong...

    Great stories people... riveting stuff.
    "We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools" -~- Martin Luther King, Jr.

  9. #9
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    Re: To admit to having been wrong...

    *Gladly hands the "geeeez! I must concede a point" trophy back to apok........

    I see ads on the TV showing that right here in the USA there are children (and they show a blue-eyed curly blond haired little boy) who go to bed hungry every night.
    While I agree that they may not be getting 3 sqaures a day I also believe that is a sign of bad management.
    I know three people who are eligble for food stamps. One, an unemployed mother of two, applied for food stamps and suddenly she's having porterhouses and grilled salmon every night.
    Understand, I don't begrudge them for receiving food stamps. if the need is there I want NO child to go to bed hungry. But here is an unemployed person with two children and she can now afford to eat much better than I can. So I see a disparity there. What I think may be the case in many households is that the poor parents do not "budget" anything. Perhaps that is why the kid in the ads goes to bed hungry? I also know that many people sell some of their food stamps so they can buy items like tobacco.
    I was very poor. I was raised in the slums, some of the worse even. (at the time) But my dad chain smoked, he spent at least a third of his money drinking and renting those "oh-so-ugly" ten dollar a night bar-flies. Had he not had bad habits he certainly could have improved the quality of his and my brother and mine's standard of living. Of course he never gave that a thought.
    We do not have a problem with food distribution within our borders. Therefore it is difficult to understand how it is that we have so many poor. I won't guess at the numbers because their circumstances, though different in many ways, also share some.

    When I was a young kid in the 50's and even into the 60's I remember my grandma (when she was off the farm) always grew a small garden in the back yard. (man did I get switched once when I dug for worms in her garden)

    look around. Drive through a poor neighborhood, (maybe even in the alleys) and see how many people who are on food stamps bothering to grow a small garden in their backyards or on a windo planter.
    I never see anyone who uses food stampos even give a thought to growing a garden or even go fund the local lake and fish.
    I also am no longer sure where the poverty line is drawn.
    If my kids were hungry, and I was thinking about food stamps I would first sell any extra televisions nor would I purchase DVD players or many of the things working people purchase.
    So I think that poverty has become a tool (not for every poor person) to be used by people who have been assigned by society as "poor".
    If I may borrow a parable from confusciousns(sp?), "give someone a fish and they will eat one day. Teach a person to fish, (and if necessary provide them with a pole and tackle and teach then how they are used) and they will eat a lifetime.
    I don't see enough of that mentality any longer in our nation's poor. I know they have many hurdles, I know because I've had to clear many of the same ones that today's poor people do, and more besides.

    Here is a poem that was obviously biast roward bush and christians, I'm not printing the offending points as what part I will present is sufficent to make my point:

    Is your job secure? Can your baby go to college?
    If the answers are no, then you're armed with the knowledge.
    The knowledge to know, that your famine is by design.
    Regulated by those, that don't care about yours or mine.


    We're in the land of the free, and the home of the brave.
    Use that freedom and courage, to emancipate poor slaves.
    Lets band together, for this monumental cause,
    Disregard my message, Pink slip, your job is lost.


    If your bills are paid and you're doing great,
    I hope you understand, its not about player hate.
    We know about the coffee, up rises the cream.
    Our grievance is the theft, of our American Dream….

    (if you care to read the entire poem.. www.ctadams.com/soul5.html )

    When I was a young man I realized what a huge advantage most citizens had over me. They already had cars. They had homes, they had a standard od living that seemed foever barred from me.
    I still have very little though I do not consider myself poor. My wife and mine's annual income is not near that as our contemporaries. Yet we own three properties (okay, we are still making payments on all properties.) A house, a business building and we are building a modest but beautiful home on 7 plus acres in a beautiful spot.

    So how do we pull this off? How is it that our business is solid and we have three properties as well as two late model vehicles paid off? We have ZERO credit card dept. My wife is great with handling money and neither of us are material driven. Heck, most of our furniture was given to us by relatives wishing to discard them.

    All this and we had to start our lives all over, from below zero, poorer than poor. Now, 11 years later we have all that we have.

    I believe that anyone who needs to be on welfare, or they are very poor, should qualifiy for classes that teaches them how to budget, how to ration out food in a way that they ate 3 squares a day. They should have to grow small gardens if they have a yard so that they don't need to rely on food stamps as much. they should not only be encouraged, but mandated to taking classes teaching them skills or filling in the gaps of their knowledge and ignorance. ANYONE who does need help from their fellow citizens (and lets face it we all pay the bill) should HAVE to find a way to contribute to their communities, starting with keeping their house in as good shape as there time/money/skills allow for. I've lived in houses, (actually the one I am in now!) where I used a needle and thread to sew torn window screens to make them look better than they do flapping in the wind.

    So far as other countries there IS a problem of distribution in both goods and services/education.............:O)
    When the power of love becomes stronger than the love of power, there will be peace..........jimi hendrix.

  10. #10
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

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    Re: To admit to having been wrong...

    Okay. I admit it. I am completely and utterly incorrect and I concede on all points I've addressed in this thread.

  11. #11
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    Re: To admit to having been wrong...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus
    Okay. I admit it. I am completely and utterly incorrect and I concede on all points I've addressed in this thread.
    But that's the only point you've addressed in this thread, so logically, If I were to accept that statement, I would have to assume that it was incorrect as well, so it would then have to be correct, which would mean that it was incorrect...

    Seriously, let's see what issues I've conceded...I really can't remember all of my old world view, so this is difficult. Well, I can say that I've conceded to Sam that the 60s may have experienced an increase in premarital sex, though I didn't concede the full issue. Let's see here...how naive was I in the past. I've conceded that many apparent Biblical contradictions are not truly contradictory. I'd have to do more research to find more.
    孟柏民
    Formerly Neverending (for all you old-timers)

  12. #12
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    Re: To admit to having been wrong...

    NE, I don't recall you ever publicly conceding any argument. I'd like to see some of those old posts.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  13. #13
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    Re: To admit to having been wrong...

    I love saying that I'm right 100% of the time when I know I'm wrong. Everyone just starts firing flames out of their asses and start foaming at the mouth when I do. Being wrong is too much fun.
    "With His dying breath... He saved me, with His wounds... He healed me, with His life... He died for me, although I never met Him, He remembered... me."

    +++=][ShadowKnight][=+++

  14. #14
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    Re: To admit to having been wrong...

    NE, I don't recall you ever publicly conceding any argument. I'd like to see some of those old posts.
    Now, this is forcing me to do a long search...I'll get back to you. I know that I have done so, though.

    EDIT: I knew I could find something in the Biblical Contradictions forum: http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...3319#post63319

    I don't believe this the only one, BTW, but I'm not going to go on a wild goose chase for all of those times. I typically don't enter threads where I have limited knowledge of the topic, so I might concede a bit less often than some others, as I may change my mind privately when it comes to threads where I have incomplete knowledge (and don't post on). But as you can see, I have made public concessions before...though nothing that was a full concession recently (there have been a few half-concessions, but I don't count those).
    孟柏民
    Formerly Neverending (for all you old-timers)

  15. #15
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    Re: To admit to having been wrong...

    I've conceded my share of arguments. My major changes of opinion here have been the concession to absolute truth and some changes in my philosophies on economic theory.

  16. #16
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    Re: To admit to having been wrong...

    I came to my present view of evolution (as being possible and likely already proven true) because of this website. Squaring that with my upbringing as a Baptist was tough; I believe a thread has been devoted to debunking the schlock that Kent Hovind sells. I'm sad to say that I remember watching his stuff in evening church services. Luckily ODN set me straight.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  17. #17
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    Re: To admit to having been wrong...

    I don't think I have conceded too many on this forum... Maybe one or two, but more for lack of care than the actual state of being blatantly wrong.

    Although, I am often too hard on Christians (Except when you cite the Bible. You deserve it then).
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

  18. #18
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    Re: To admit to having been wrong...

    ...not in a thread...

    ...only to my fiancee'...

    ...women's powers of persuasion often transcend that of sheer logic methinks.
    "It is better to say nothing and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt"
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    Anonymous


    "Surely I am more foolish than any man, and do not have the understanding of a man"
    - Proverbs 30:2

 

 

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