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  1. #1
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    Too Little, Too Late

    Look at the latest list of defeatist, patriot-challenged, Bush haters; Republicans and Conservatives, all. They use words like "failure" and "inept." One claims to have "underestimated" the difficulty of invading Iraq. Another decries the "big spending Lyndon Johnson" in the White House. Still another calls "compassionate conservatism" an empty "marketing slogan." One even said that, knowing what she knows now, she would (gasp!) not have voted for George W. Bush.

    What's amazing is not that these prominent voices on the American Right could utter such strong criticisms, but that it took them so long. We've lost thousands of soldiers, spent our national treasure, mucked up disaster relief, etc., etc., etc., and these folks have largely remained silent or muted. I find nothing noble in their change of heart. To little, too late.

    Now, where are the Bush supporters to tear these Bush critics apart; to question their motives; to besmirch their patriotism; to brand them cowards? Where is "patriotic" Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh when you need them to save the Union from out-and-out traitors of the conservative ilk? The silence is deafening.

    William F. Buckley, founder of the Conservative magazine National Review, recently wrote, "One can't doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed. . . . And the administration has, now, to cope with failure."

    Andrew Sullivan, Neo Con author and blogger, blamed his fellow Neo-cons for underestimating the difficulty of invading Iraq three years ago this week. Sullivan added, "We have learned a tough lesson...and it has been a lot tougher for those tens of thousands of dead, innocent Iraqis and several thousand killed and injured American soldiers than for a few humiliated pundits."

    Peggy Noonan (Republican Speech Writer) said "she would not have voted for Bush had she known he was going to turn into a big-spending Lyndon Johnson."

    Jonah Goldberg, Conservative Columnist, said ""most conservatives never really understood what compassionate conservatism was, beyond a convenient marketing slogan...reality...is that there was nothing behind the curtain."

    Bruce Bartlett, Conservative Economist, has a new book entitled, ""Impostor: How George W. Bush Bankrupted America and Betrayed the Reagan Legacy." To rub salt in the wound, Bartlett called the Bush administration "unconscionable," "vindictive" and "inept."

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/19/AR2006031901169.html

  2. #2
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    Re: Too Little, Too Late

    Allow me to reproduce the sig line quote I use elsewhere:

    "So conservatives are now afraid that when the dust has settled, their philosophy will be identified with Bush’s failure. That would be unjust to their philosophy, but they’ve asked for it. It’s too late for them to repudiate him now. He hasn’t betrayed them as badly as they’ve betrayed their philosophy by supporting him all these years." Joe Sobran
    "The intelligence and facts are being fixed around the policy."
    head of MI6

    "The Emory University study proves beyond a doubt that politicians and their acolytes - are lying morons."

    "We must make clear to the Germans that the wrong for which their fallen leaders are on trial is not that they lost the war, but that they started it."
    Justice Jackson Nov. 21, 1945, Nuremberg

  3. #3
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    Re: Too Little, Too Late

    Quote Originally Posted by manise
    Now, where are the Bush supporters to tear these Bush critics apart; to question their motives; to besmirch their patriotism; to brand them cowards?
    Odd to indict Conservatives but not Liberals for calling peoples' motives and patriotism into question.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  4. #4
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    Re: Too Little, Too Late

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples
    Odd to indict Conservatives but not Liberals for calling peoples' motives and patriotism into question.
    I'm not aware that Liberals claimed patriotism for themselves. I'm not aware of a Liberal politician calling Dick Cheney or George Bush a coward on the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives. I'm not aware of a Gold Star mother's patriotism being questioned because she supports this ugly war.

    I am aware that these five prominent conservative voices were not heard when it mattered most; during the debates on the war, on the massive tax cuts and other contributions to the nation's debt explosion, during the swiftboating of war critic and war hero John Murtha, and other matters they are now criticising their party leader for. I'm glad to see the change of heart, but the damage is done.

  5. #5
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    Re: Too Little, Too Late

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples
    Odd to indict Conservatives but not Liberals for calling peoples' motives and patriotism into question.

    Think in regards to your children, think in regards to the past of the united states, think in regards to what actually happens (liberal or conservative).


    Your children will grow up in a world where the united states is a former super power careening down the path of extinction.

    The past of the united states (pre fdr ) was the hey days and now it is the doldrums.

    What actually politically happens, well the liberals run away and the conservatives fight shadows, the most important thing is MINOR ISSUES ARE TRUMPED AS MAJOR AND MAJOR ARE BACKBURNERED ! THE MEDIA RUNS THE COUNTRY look around ask someone a pointed political question and the majority will answer using the news!

  6. #6
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    Re: Too Little, Too Late

    I think the media is running the country because most modern political debate is simply a matter of interpreting morality. As such, gaining precedent is a good way to add a sense of credibility to your side. Siting events and problems I think creates a backdrop of truth. Like,

    "Why should abortion be legal? Remember that story about Sally? Well without abortion, she would have had to keep that sicko's baby"

  7. #7
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    Re: Too Little, Too Late

    I'm not sure what your point is. Alright, some Republican commentators have turned against Bush. What is the subject of debate? Whether Bush sucks? If so, and your position is yes, then simply citing other people saying so isn't very good debating (in fact it's fallacious).

  8. #8
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    Re: Too Little, Too Late

    Kev - After seeing some in depth investigation in Iraq, the US and the UK, by Brit. TV Channel Four, that highlighted the many and serious problems still being faced most Iraqis because of greed, corruption and downright cavalier incompetence on the part of officials and contractors appointed by the Whitehouse - I am forced to come to the conclusion that the 'coalition' (despite the best intentions of some) have made a bit of a bodge of things. We have wasted and missed out on our moment and chance to really change things for the better. 'Our' greed and incompetence has in effect cast out one 'devil' and inserted in his place many lesser ones, and freed up some other 'big devil' to stir things up and make his own move as the opportunity arises.

    Matthew 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

    Mark 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  9. #9
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    Re: Too Little, Too Late

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning
    I'm not sure what your point is. Alright, some Republican commentators have turned against Bush. What is the subject of debate? Whether Bush sucks? If so, and your position is yes, then simply citing other people saying so isn't very good debating (in fact it's fallacious).
    Instead of building strawmans, why not address the political implications of these Republican turncoats. This is the US Politics forum, is it not? Address the politics. For example, I find it interesting that these PROMINENT Republican thinkers are challenging the president NOW and not earlier. Andrew Sullivan and William Buckley have finally attacked Bush on the Iraq War. You don't see Bill Frist and other Republican leaders making major speeches to defend Bush. Is this a revolt? A temporary spat? Treason?

    I find it interesting that when Republicans challenge the president these days on the Iraq War, they aren't publicly harangued for defeatism, as the Democrats have been.

    I find it interesting that as Bush's poll numbers plummet like a lead balloon, Republicans can't seem to find the energy to defend a war that they CLAIM is fundamental to America's national security.

    I never implied in my OP that Bush sucks. Most Americans know that already. If you're interested in US politics, Republican defections from the Bush wagon train should be of interest.

  10. #10
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    Re: Too Little, Too Late

    Well I guess it could be defended in that jumping on the latest bandwagon of public opinion is a form of political democracy - but the original opinion was formed via their lies and deceptions in the first place..


    P.
    "The intelligence and facts are being fixed around the policy."
    head of MI6

    "The Emory University study proves beyond a doubt that politicians and their acolytes - are lying morons."

    "We must make clear to the Germans that the wrong for which their fallen leaders are on trial is not that they lost the war, but that they started it."
    Justice Jackson Nov. 21, 1945, Nuremberg

  11. #11
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    Re: Too Little, Too Late

    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut
    Kev - After seeing some in depth investigation in Iraq, the US and the UK, by Brit. TV Channel Four, that highlighted the many and serious problems still being faced most Iraqis because of greed, corruption and downright cavalier incompetence on the part of officials and contractors appointed by the Whitehouse - I am forced to come to the conclusion that the 'coalition' (despite the best intentions of some) have made a bit of a bodge of things. We have wasted and missed out on our moment and chance to really change things for the better. 'Our' greed and incompetence has in effect cast out one 'devil' and inserted in his place many lesser ones, and freed up some other 'big devil' to stir things up and make his own move as the opportunity arises.
    Colin Powell made some telling comments in his interview with Sir David Frost late last year. He said that his State Department had formulated a complete and detailed plan about how to manage post-war Iraq, but it was rejected by Rumsfeld and his Defence Department with the backing of Bush and Cheney. One wonders how many of the failings and blunders would have been avoided if things were run by someone more in touch with reality than Rumsfeld.

  12. #12
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    Re: Too Little, Too Late

    Quote Originally Posted by mog
    Colin Powell made some telling comments in his interview with Sir David Frost late last year. He said that his State Department had formulated a complete and detailed plan about how to manage post-war Iraq, but it was rejected by Rumsfeld and his Defence Department with the backing of Bush and Cheney. One wonders how many of the failings and blunders would have been avoided if things were run by someone more in touch with reality than Rumsfeld.
    This sounds like an argument we'll here alot of during the future "Who Lost Iraq" debate in America.

    "Bush the Hero was failed by stupid advisors."

    That will be a creative, but a very hard sell.

  13. #13
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    Re: Too Little, Too Late

    Mog - Bush cannot be totally excused by saying that he was ill advised by others. He (presumeably) has his own mind and is able to cross check and investigate further from 'other' sources the voracity of much of the 'bullsh*t' he is fed. If he is incapable of seeing past the weasley words of many of his greedy and corrupt sicophants, then he has no business running for high office in politics. Blame cannot be just air-brushed away from him.

    Bush should contemplate daily on the desk sign left by Truman in the Oval Office - 'The Buck Stops Here'.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  14. #14
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    Re: Too Little, Too Late

    How on earth have you two managed to misconstrue that statement into anything remotely supportive of Bush?

    You must be suffering from some McCarthy-esque paranoia that makes you see a pro-Bush agenda anywhere and everywhere. Reds under the beds!

  15. #15
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    Re: Too Little, Too Late

    mog - There was an appearence of some 'distancing' of blame by focussing on Rumsfeld. Bush has been heavily involved in the appointing of more than just his old daddy's (former) defense dept. political buddy. He was involved in authorising political guys in the Pentagon to have power over who got the Iraq contracts. The Pentagon and the Whitehouse were in constant touch with what was going on. Whistle blowers were given scant regard. It seems that some people were in effect given cart blanche to carry away millions of dollars that were earmarked for the democratising and reconstruction of Iraq. Laws were enacted by the political 'inner circle' that effectively protected many of the contractors from BOTH United States' laws AND Iraqi laws. Bush was involved in OKing these 'laws'. He will have known why they were really designed that way and their fiscal consequences. He will have known that 'gratitude loot' would find it's way into Republican funds and cronies pockets. In many ways he is stupid, but he ain't that stupid.

    Glad that you were not defending Bush. I was just testing the 'moggy' water
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  16. #16
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    Re: Too Little, Too Late

    Quote Originally Posted by mog
    How on earth have you two managed to misconstrue that statement into anything remotely supportive of Bush?
    Whether or not you support Bush, I still stand by my prediction. Rummy will take the fall for Bush when the "Who lost Iraq" debate gets underway. If you recall, Bush did the exact same thing just after Katrina. He let FEMA director Michael Brown twist in the wind and claimed "poor information."

    Quote Originally Posted by mog
    You must be suffering from some McCarthy-esque paranoia that makes you see a pro-Bush agenda anywhere and everywhere. Reds under the beds!
    Yeah, that must be it.

  17. #17
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    Re: Too Little, Too Late

    Add a dash of Vietnam style "Lack of support at home" as though somehow them at home are obligated to support anything Fuher Bush decrees?


    P.
    "The intelligence and facts are being fixed around the policy."
    head of MI6

    "The Emory University study proves beyond a doubt that politicians and their acolytes - are lying morons."

    "We must make clear to the Germans that the wrong for which their fallen leaders are on trial is not that they lost the war, but that they started it."
    Justice Jackson Nov. 21, 1945, Nuremberg

  18. #18
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    Re: Too Little, Too Late

    Quote Originally Posted by Pibs
    Add a dash of Vietnam style "Lack of support at home" as though somehow them at home are obligated to support anything Fuher Bush decrees?
    Yes, I expect we'll hear the old familiar complaints against the Liberal/Mainstream Mass Media for losing Iraq. However, with more Republicans like William Buckeley expressing their opposition to the war, that argument is a non-starter. But they'll give it go anyway. We're sure to see it on these boards eventually.

  19. #19
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    Re: Too Little, Too Late

    Could be tricky blaming the American media this time around though, for they have shamed and embarrassed themselves throughout the world for their sheeple docility and willingness to print the Neocon's opinions as fact.

    That for example most Americans had to to discover on the internet that Pat Tillman was shot by US forces, that the Jessica Lynch "rescue" was a farce, that the facts were being altered to fit the policy etc etc about sums it up. I read a rather horrifying figure the other day, apparently a very high percentage of US troops in Iraq to this day STILL believe Saddam had something to do with 9/11?!!

    Awesome.

    So I think the war-mongoring morons will struggle to blame the media but yeah, will complain that the general public just weren't gung-ho enough and too squeamish about blowing up little kiddies with 2,000lb bombs and napalm in a country that was never a threat to the US etc etc.

    Frankly, right now, if America is to regain a semblance of her former reputation, you need a lot MORE people speaking out against the war and indeed the illegality of this administration.

    I've always had a rather low opinion of the general rabble but even I'm amazed at how sheep-like you Americans have been lately. Have you no shame?


    P.
    "The intelligence and facts are being fixed around the policy."
    head of MI6

    "The Emory University study proves beyond a doubt that politicians and their acolytes - are lying morons."

    "We must make clear to the Germans that the wrong for which their fallen leaders are on trial is not that they lost the war, but that they started it."
    Justice Jackson Nov. 21, 1945, Nuremberg

  20. #20
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    Re: Too Little, Too Late

    You'll get no argument from me about the weak-kneed, Neo-Con shills infesting the American media today.

    You mentioned Pat Tillman. That story of military cover-up just disappeared. Once hailed as a war hero killed by the enemy, Tillman now doesn't merit two words from the war supporters. The Republicans especially have shunned Tillman's parents for having the audacity to angrily demand answers from the Pentagon.

    The Afghanistan War is off the media's radar screen. Save for the recent sharia law death sentence story, few are talking about the rising level of Taliban violence outside of Kabul. Everybody is focused on Iraq and Iran.

    Returning to the OP, Republicans are beginning to voice their doubts about our adventure in Iraq, albeit at a turtle's pace. They can't ignore the fact that most Americans no longer believe the embarrassment occupying the White House. They've tuned out him and his broken record speeches.

    Still, Americans by and large don't care that Bush breaks laws, like the one requiring him to get warrants before initiating domestic surveillance. The American media gave up too soon on the story. Amazing, really. Bush simply acted on his own, pushed the law aside, and declared the equivalent of executive privilege. Republicans and Democrats will initiate some kind of congressional hearings, but I have little faith in their sincerity.

    Have patience. 911 affected Americans deeply and Bush capitalized on the opportunity. The collective amnesia is wearing off though. I hope it results in a change of power in the Congress this Fall. We'll see.

 

 
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