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  1. #1
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    Christian God... An Abomination?

    I have read posts about atheists having problems with the nature of the Christian God (balancing his jealously with his love), which eventually made me think of the similar Gnostic view. I think that the atheists are right about Yahweh, i.e that he cannot be the true, ultimate God of the Universe. How does a vengeful God do a 180 and become an all knowing God? He doesn't but Christ came and brought forth the path back to the true father.

    Gnostic View on God the Creator (of Man):
    Yahweh, God the creator, was not the only God and is jealous that he is below the Father of Light. Sin came not from Adam and Eve eating the apple but Yahweh's creation of the world and man. Yahweh used (was tricked into using) particles of "light" in the creation of mankind. So man is only a fragment of the true God (the Father of Light) and the beginning of the path back to the true God was Adam and Eve eating the Fruit* and disobeying Yahweh. (Introduction to The Secret Book of John, The Other Bible)

    Describing the Father of Life: A being that appeared as child/old man/light appeared to John:
    "The Spirit is a Unity, over which no one rules. It is the God of Truth, the Father of All, the Holy Spirit, the invisible one, the one who is over all... One must not consider the Spirit as God or as of a specific quality, for it is more excellent than the gods." (The Secret Book of John, The Other Bible)

    On Ialdoboath (Yahweh) "He saw the creation beneath him, and the multitude of angels beneath him, who came into existence out of him, and he said to them, 'I am a jealous God; there is no other god beside me' - already indicating to the angels beneath him that another god does exist." (The Secret Book of John, The Other Bible)

    *to further show the nature of our Christian God:"the commandment was given not to taste of it... so that he might not look up towards his perfection nor know his nakedness in relation to his perfection" (Aside: Interestingly it is Eve as "the thought of Light" that saves mankind from the "anesthesia" placed upon Adam by Ialdoboath) - The Secret Book of John
    "I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly." Winston Churchill "When you put on a uniform there are certain inhibitions that you accept." Dwight D. Eisenhower "What then is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks, I do not know." Saint Augustine

  2. #2
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    Re: Christian God... An Abomination?

    Some Christians would tell me that we would just be robots without the ability to commit a sin. Than wtf is Heaven? Can we commit sins in Heaven, if not, according to those Christians, we would be nothing but robots in Heaven. So why does this perfect benevolent being let things like Hell and sin exist if everyone could just be in Heaven? He wanted us to worship him? And to choose to do so without clearly letting us know, hence faith? Not only that but, he already knows that by the way he creates us he knows precisely the consequences of the flaws he puts in us and knows before creating us that we will pass regulations or not. Are you Christians just the lucky ones that God decided to create a certain way that would consequentially lead you to Heaven and its just too bad that I was created in a way that God knew would send me to Hell forever? How in the world does a finite sin that God not only allows, but creates the sinner in the exact way they are, deserve a infinite punishment? Do you realize how long infinity is? It can't even be defined by time. How can a perfect being allow all of this?

    Let me explain something to you.

    According to your own doctrine.. God is omnipotent, omniscient, benevolant, perfect, all-mighty being.

    This god, is capable of anything, anything less would not make him much of a god. Now lets see here, god is capable of anything, but he creates a world of suffering. Now, don't tell me its our own fault, that we would just be robots if we couldn't sin.

    Some Christians would than tell me that we would just be robots without the ability to commit a sin. Than wtf is Heaven? Can we commit sins in Heaven, if not, according to those Christians, we would be nothing but robots in Heaven. So why does this perfect benevolent being let things like Hell and sin exist if everyone could just be in Heaven? He wanted us to worship him? And to choose to do so without clearly letting us know, hence faith? Not only that but, he already knows that by the way he creates us he knows precisely the consequences of the flaws he puts in us and knows before creating us that we will pass regulations or not. Are you Christians just the lucky ones that God decided to create a certain way that would consequentially lead you to Heaven and its just too bad that I was created in a way that God knew would send me to Hell forever? How in the world does a finite sin that God not only allows, but creates the sinner in the exact way they are, deserve a infinite punishment? Do you realize how long infinity is? It can't even be defined by time. How can a perfect being allow all of this?

    The classic retort by theists to the problem of evil is that God gave humanity free will. The usual reason given for this is that he didn't want to create mindless robots, and the consequence of this decision is that evil is the responsibility of man, not God. I will attempt to prove if the omnimax God exists, then the moral responsibility for evil lies with him whether or not he gave us free will.
    Let's consider the Xian description of post-judgment eternity in heaven. This will apparently be a place of moral perfection where there will be no evil - indeed there can't ever be any evil there. Now either the inhabitants of heaven will have free will or they won't.
    If they have free will then that's proof that it's possible for free will and moral perfection to co-exist. That means that having free will is not the reason for evil - which means that the ultimate responsibility for evil is back on God's shoulders.
    On the other hand if they don't have free will then the theist's logic falls completely apart. He is left in the absurd position of arguing that God gave us free will because he didn't want mindless robots serving him in order to ultimately have mindless robots serving him for all eternity. If God ultimately wants mindless robots then why bother giving us free will in the first place? In that case, he's still responsible for all the evil caused by giving us free will.

    I hear crap about "its our own fault life sucks, God let us make choices". Well guess what.. not everyone is as fortunate as you are. Some kids are born and will know nothing but pain. They didn't CHOOSE for this pain, they were born into it. And this exact pain is what drives these already suffering children to sneer at the very idea of "God". Why should they believe? Cause its a nice thought? Heaven? Well according to most doctrine, these hateful, god-sneering, "non-believers" after a lifetime of suffering will go straight to Hell.
    And like I said.. God supposedly created everything. He is capable of anything. But he chose to create things in such a way that would cause such inevitable suffering. And we know a perfect place without sin is possible. I believe you call it Heaven. But this supposedly "benevolent" god chose to make so many suffer. Not only that, but allow ETERNAL suffering in Hell. And for what? So that he can see us miraculously maintain faith and worship him by our own will? At the cost of so many? When he doesn't even give the slightest clue of his existence to the rest of us. And KNOWS we aren't going to believe. Yet, he chooses to let things happen as they are. He CHOSE to create this world just as it is when he is capable of ANYTHING. He is CAPABLE of providing a sinless, eternally blissful place, called Heaven. Yet he didn't create the world that way. He knows what suffering with become of his creations. He knows some of his creations will fail the test of life and be sent to Hell to suffer for ETERNATY. He is capable of Heaven. He capable of ANYTHING. What kinda sick god do you worship?

    Why did God create disease? Is that our own fault too? Why did God create natural disasters that would kill millions, again, must be our own fault? Oh wait, I know, he just wants to test our faith by putting us through a world of suffering. Why would a god, who is supposed to be unselfish, have the desire to test the faith of his creations by putting them through a world of suffering, when we already know god is capable of much more, hence Heaven? Why does this god want to test the faith of little Betty who will be kidnapped, raped, tortured, and eventually killed, by not only letting this happen, but by not even answering her prayers for help? Don't tell me its our won fault, little Betty didn't choice to be kidnapped raped tortured and killed. Little Johnny didn't choose to be born with a disease that will slowley disinigrate his bones that will bind him to a motorized wheel chair, a distorted face, poor speaking capabilities, embaressment from soiling himself, constant agony, and the knowledge that he will die at a young age. And what does God expect? That little Johnny will just forgive God and accept that God just likes testing his faith? Oh and, if he didn't pass the test of faith, he would have just sent him to suffer forever in Hell? I would hope, even if little Johnny disbelieved and even scorned the very idea of God, that God would allow him in Heaven nonetheless. But even so, if God was going to just allow him in Heaven no matter what, why did he have to test his faith? What sick "need" does a god have that would allow him to do this?

    God created the test (life), the passing grade (Heaven or Hell), and the IQ of its participants (ability to pass the test).

    Not only that, but God knows what grade each creation will receive and he alone created the creation just as they are knowing every detail of every instant of every moment of every choice that his creation would make. He created his creation knowing what grade they would make and he knew the exact consequences of the exact way God alone creates them.

    God creates a being.
    God is omniscient.
    God knows exactley what will happen to his being.
    God alone creates the being.
    God choices to create the being just as they are.
    God knows what will happen to this being after creating this being any way he chooses.
    God chooses the exact way he intends to.
    God now knows exactley what will happen to his creation.
    God is aware of the other choices he could have made.
    God is aware of exactley what would happen if the other choices were made when creating the being.
    God knows the ultimate outcome for the being he creates as a result of the way he chooses to create the being.
    God chooses to allow Hell and Heaven.
    God chooses to allow creations to go to Hell.
    God knows in advance where his creation will go as a direct result of how, where, when, his creation is created.
    God wants us to choose to worship him.
    God already knows if we will worship him or not.
    God chooses not to make himself more evident to everyone.
    God knows that this choice will lead millions to suffer forever in Hell.
    God wants us to worship him.
    God is a god.
    What need could God possibley have that would justify the countless millions who will be sent to Hell?
    Does God really need to make the test of life so hard?
    What need is God fullfilling by doing so?
    Does God really need to be so elusive?
    What need is God fullfilling by doing so?
    Does God really need to create a desire to sin?
    What need is God fullfilling by doing so?
    Does God really need to punish his creations who cannot pass the test of life, who were created just as they are by God alone?
    Does God see justice in an infinite punishment for a finite sin?

  3. #3
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    Re: Christian God... An Abomination?

    Blood Lull, stop copying and pasting the same essay over and again. Are you not able to come up with anything new?
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

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    Re: Christian God... An Abomination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blood Lull
    Some Christians would tell me that we would just be robots without the ability to commit a sin. Than wtf is Heaven? Can we commit sins in Heaven, if not, according to those Christians, we would be nothing but robots in Heaven. So why does this perfect benevolent being let things like Hell and sin exist if everyone could just be in Heaven? He wanted us to worship him?
    *Stare Blankly* Did you read what I wrote? *Deep Sigh* The nature of Heaven is not explicitly known and is not the issue here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blood Lull
    Let me explain something to you.

    According to your own doctrine.. God is omnipotent, omniscient, benevolant, perfect, all-mighty being.
    As any Christian will be quick to point out, Gnosticism is a different doctrine, quite different (and in some cases opposite) than modern Christianity. In fact the very God you are talking about is, in this belief, selfish, jealous, and wants to rule over humanity.

  5. #5
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    Re: Christian God... An Abomination?

    Quote Originally Posted by tismdarkling
    Gnostic View on God the Creator (of Man):
    Yahweh, God the creator, was not the only God and is jealous that he is below the Father of Light. Sin came not from Adam and Eve eating the apple but Yahweh's creation of the world and man. Yahweh used (was tricked into using) particles of "light" in the creation of mankind. So man is only a fragment of the true God (the Father of Light) and the beginning of the path back to the true God was Adam and Eve eating the Fruit* and disobeying Yahweh. (Introduction to The Secret Book of John, The Other Bible)
    Problem...you seem to be saying that there are many gods...which makes the gnostic, a polytheist. Yet, you use the Bible (at least it appears so) as well. Doesn't the Bible state that there is only 1 God, not many?

    Or is it the case that you use only the Secret Book of John and nothing else?
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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    Re: Christian God... An Abomination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    Problem...you seem to be saying that there are many gods...which makes the gnostic, a polytheist. Yet, you use the Bible (at least it appears so) as well. Doesn't the Bible state that there is only 1 God, not many?

    Or is it the case that you use only the Secret Book of John and nothing else?
    Doesn't the Bible state that there is only 1 God, not many?
    No, that is merely a modern view, but not one that was held by the ancient Hebrews. They accepted that there was other gods but that there was only one God for them (Class Notes: World Religions 100). In Gnosticism, it tells (in the example I gave in the OP) that while Yahweh knows of a greater being, he tells everyone it doesn't exist - in the ten commandments he demands worship of himself. He is a jealous being who wants to be seen as the sole power in the Universe. Then what is Yahweh if he is a lesser being (to the Father of Light)? Perhaps he can be seen more like a cosmic player - like satan.

    Yet, you use the Bible
    This comes not from the Bible, but from one of the Gnostic Books. Gnostic ideas were rejected in the Council of Nicea.

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    Re: Christian God... An Abomination?

    Quote Originally Posted by tismdarkling
    Doesn't the Bible state that there is only 1 God, not many?
    No, that is merely a modern view, but not one that was held by the ancient Hebrews. They accepted that there was other gods but that there was only one God for them (Class Notes: World Religions 100).
    Care to support this?

    Yet, you use the Bible
    This comes not from the Bible, but from one of the Gnostic Books. Gnostic ideas were rejected in the Council of Nicea.
    Well, maybe there's some legitimacy to their rejection.
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  8. #8
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    Nandy For World Domination Clan
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    We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
    - The Apostle Paul (2 Corinthians 10:5)

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    Re: Christian God... An Abomination?

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737
    Blood Lull, stop copying and pasting the same essay over and again. Are you not able to come up with anything new?
    A large portion of that WAS NEW. READ.

    They are MY ideas and I'll copy paste them as much as I like whether you have a tizzy fit over it or not.

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    Re: Christian God... An Abomination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    Care to support this?
    "The Ten Commandments begin with a reminder that Yahweh is the protector of the Hebrews and that because of his help they owe him their obedience. There seems to be an understanding, however, that other peoples have their own gods" (Michael Molloy, 298) - Experiancing The World's Religions: 3rd Ed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    Well, maybe there's some legitimacy to their rejection.
    The Catholic Church also damned the Protestants to hell.

    The below text has been automerged with this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by nanderson
    Three verses among many, all stating that there is only one God...this is certainly not a new concept and it is certainly stated in the Bible.
    However this would only lend to the Gnostic example of the God (Yahweh) wanting to drive us from finding the path to the the Father of Light. You are quoting a change in Hebrew/Jewish thought that developed over time.

    EDIT: I should not have used the term "modern"
    Last edited by tismdarkling; May 11th, 2006 at 12:24 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Re: Christian God... An Abomination?

    Quote Originally Posted by tismdarkling
    "The Ten Commandments begin with a reminder that Yahweh is the protector of the Hebrews and that because of his help they owe him their obedience. There seems to be an understanding, however, that other peoples have their own gods" (Michael Molloy, 298) - Experiancing The World's Religions: 3rd Ed.

    Let's put this in argument form.

    The 10 Commandments begin with a reminder that Yahweh is the protector of Hebrews.
    Therefore, the Hebrews owe Yahweh their obedience.


    From this, you and Mr. Molloy conclude:

    Therefore, the Hebrews believed in other gods.

    ?? It's highly fallacious tis. This is not evidence that Hebrews were polytheistic. Please give us something more.
    The Catholic Church also damned the Protestants to hell.
    Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong. You haven't demonstrated which is which however.
    Last edited by Apokalupsis; May 11th, 2006 at 03:42 PM.
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    Re: Christian God... An Abomination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    This is not evidence that Hebrews were polytheistic. Please give us something more.
    Not that they beleived in or worshiped other gods, they accepted that there were other Gods:

    "Whoever sacrifices to any god, except to the Lord alone, shall be doomed" (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

    "that certain scoundrels have sprung up among you and and have led astray the inhabitants of their city to serve other gods whom you have not known,...[destroy the city, kill everyone]...because you have heeded the voice of the Lord, your God, keeping all his commandments which i enjoin on you today, doing with is right in his sight." (Deuteronomy 13:14,19 NAB)

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong.
    Gnositicism declares salvation by conscience (Stephan Hoeller). It labels God, the Creator, as the source of taint in the world and humanity. The purpose of the council of Nicea was to create a unified Christian religion; to create that unity, controversial beliefs were declared heresy. This is the same as the excommunication of Martin Luther.

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    Re: Christian God... An Abomination?

    Quote Originally Posted by tismdarkling
    I have read posts about atheists having problems with the nature of the Christian God (balancing his jealously with his love), which eventually made me think of the similar Gnostic view. I think that the atheists are right about Yahweh, i.e that he cannot be the true, ultimate God of the Universe. How does a vengeful God do a 180 and become an all knowing God? He doesn't but Christ came and brought forth the path back to the true father.

    Gnostic View on God the Creator (of Man):
    Yahweh, God the creator, was not the only God and is jealous that he is below the Father of Light. Sin came not from Adam and Eve eating the apple but Yahweh's creation of the world and man. Yahweh used (was tricked into using) particles of "light" in the creation of mankind. So man is only a fragment of the true God (the Father of Light) and the beginning of the path back to the true God was Adam and Eve eating the Fruit* and disobeying Yahweh. (Introduction to The Secret Book of John, The Other Bible)

    Describing the Father of Life: A being that appeared as child/old man/light appeared to John:
    "The Spirit is a Unity, over which no one rules. It is the God of Truth, the Father of All, the Holy Spirit, the invisible one, the one who is over all... One must not consider the Spirit as God or as of a specific quality, for it is more excellent than the gods." (The Secret Book of John, The Other Bible)

    On Ialdoboath (Yahweh) "He saw the creation beneath him, and the multitude of angels beneath him, who came into existence out of him, and he said to them, 'I am a jealous God; there is no other god beside me' - already indicating to the angels beneath him that another god does exist." (The Secret Book of John, The Other Bible)

    *to further show the nature of our Christian God:"the commandment was given not to taste of it... so that he might not look up towards his perfection nor know his nakedness in relation to his perfection" (Aside: Interestingly it is Eve as "the thought of Light" that saves mankind from the "anesthesia" placed upon Adam by Ialdoboath) - The Secret Book of John

    So if your right than a new god was invented? As a result we now know based on this reasoning that a new god will be invented aproximately every 500-2000 years. Allah being example numero 1, and scientologies spacemen being example number 2.

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    Re: Christian God... An Abomination?

    Quote Originally Posted by tismdarkling
    Not that they beleived in or worshiped other gods, they accepted that there were other Gods:

    "Whoever sacrifices to any god, except to the Lord alone, shall be doomed" (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

    "that certain scoundrels have sprung up among you and and have led astray the inhabitants of their city to serve other gods whom you have not known,...[destroy the city, kill everyone]...because you have heeded the voice of the Lord, your God, keeping all his commandments which i enjoin on you today, doing with is right in his sight." (Deuteronomy 13:14,19 NAB)


    Gnositicism declares salvation by conscience (Stephan Hoeller). It labels God, the Creator, as the source of taint in the world and humanity. The purpose of the council of Nicea was to create a unified Christian religion; to create that unity, controversial beliefs were declared heresy. This is the same as the excommunication of Martin Luther.
    Not that other gods were created by the One True God, but that, by worshipping other things than God (i.e. money, drugs, sex, possessions, etc.) people create their own god(s). Perhaps even in the act of worshipping the 'fallacies' of the Bible, you have created your own god... (Because you cannot use the Bible, which says there is only one True God, to prove that Yaweh is not the only true God...)
    "It is better by noble boldness to run the risk of being subject to half the evils we anticipate than to remain in cowardly listlessness for fear of what might happen." -Heroditus

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    Re: Christian God... An Abomination?

    Quote Originally Posted by wannaextreme
    So if your right than a new god was invented?
    No, the Father of Light was always there - we needed someone who could give us the path back to him and away from the oppresion of Yahweh.

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    Re: Christian God... An Abomination?

    Quote Originally Posted by tismdarkling
    No, the Father of Light was always there - we needed someone who could give us the path back to him and away from the oppresion of Yahweh.

    So there is multiple gods? Doesnt this go against the whole theology of a deistic religion?
    Monotheists would call that heresy.

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    Re: Christian God... An Abomination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Descartes
    Not that other gods were created by the One True God, but that, by worshipping other things than God (i.e. money, drugs, sex, possessions, etc.) people create their own god(s). Perhaps even in the act of worshipping the 'fallacies' of the Bible, you have created your own god... (Because you cannot use the Bible, which says there is only one True God, to prove that Yaweh is not the only true God...)
    I didn't. I was merely showing that the ancient Hebrews knew that there were other Gods. I used Gnostic writings to show that Yahweh was not the true god and the Bible's recording of the nature of Yahweh to relate him to the Gnostic Scripture.

    The below text has been automerged with this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by wannaextreme
    So there is multiple gods? Doesnt this go against the whole theology of a deistic religion?
    Monotheists would call that heresy.
    Monotheists accept Satan. Why would they not accept the existance of a oppresive cosmic being?
    Last edited by tismdarkling; May 11th, 2006 at 02:40 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Re: Christian God... An Abomination?

    Quote Originally Posted by tismdarkling
    *Stare Blankly* Did you read what I wrote? *Deep Sigh* The nature of Heaven is not explicitly known and is not the issue here.

    As any Christian will be quick to point out, Gnosticism is a different doctrine, quite different (and in some cases opposite) than modern Christianity. In fact the very God you are talking about is, in this belief, selfish, jealous, and wants to rule over humanity.
    Christian God... An Abomination? That is the title, correct? That is a question and I answered you.

    Gnosticism is not Christianity.

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    Re: Christian God... An Abomination?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blood Lull
    Gnosticism is not Christianity.
    How?

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    Re: Christian God... An Abomination?

    Quote Originally Posted by tismdarkling
    Monotheists accept Satan. Why would they not accept the existance of a oppresive cosmic being?

    However they do not. There is only one god and no more. So the argument is self defeating.
    The idea of a satan was originated by the pagans, and to be honest it is one of the very few things correct in that new book. Satan, was originally the god of fertility. Sorry but your definition of god and yahweh is incorrect, as according to the bible (christian guidebook) they are one and the same.

 

 
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