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  1. #1
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    In Christianity it is OK to Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by Mindtrap
    Yea.. I know the commandment... it says.. thou shalt not "murder"
    Which is not just killing.
    It is O.K. to kill.. it is not O.K. to murder.
    you can kill when Judgment is being pronounced.. IE.. death penalty
    You can kill to defend yourself
    You can kill in war.
    Jesus' teaching is to turn the other cheek? From the new testament (and the actions of the curch pre-constantine) how do you make these claims? Can anyone justify them?
    "I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly." Winston Churchill "When you put on a uniform there are certain inhibitions that you accept." Dwight D. Eisenhower "What then is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks, I do not know." Saint Augustine

  2. #2
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    Re: In Christianity it is OK to Kill

    If you read the entire sermen on the mound you would understand.

    Back in the days of Jesus, the biggest insult was to back hand someone. What Jesus was saying is that if someone back hands you to show you disrespect, turn to them the other cheek and let them slap you again. In other words, let them disrepect you all they want, because once they see your unique reaction to them, they will be like "whoa, there is something different about these Christians."

    If Jesus would have said "if someone takes out a sword and chops off your arm, turn the other arm," than that would definatly mean be an absolute pacifist, but turning your cheek is not the same thing.

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    Re: In Christianity it is OK to Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by Purelyironic
    If you read the entire sermen on the mound you would understand...If Jesus would have said "if someone takes out a sword and chops off your arm, turn the other arm," than that would definatly mean be an absolute pacifist, but turning your cheek is not the same thing.
    A) Jesus taught in parables

    Another references to peaceful living in the Christian Scriptures:

    Romans 12:17-18
    Don't mistreat someone who has mistreated you. But try to earn the respect of others, and do your best to live at peace with everyone.

    B)Early Christians were known for their non-violence
    "I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly." Winston Churchill "When you put on a uniform there are certain inhibitions that you accept." Dwight D. Eisenhower "What then is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks, I do not know." Saint Augustine

  4. #4
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    Re: In Christianity it is OK to Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by Purelyironic
    If Jesus would have said "if someone takes out a sword and chops off your arm, turn the other arm," than that would definatly mean be an absolute pacifist, but turning your cheek is not the same thing.
    Would Jesus support the use of nuclear weapons?
    "If God had not intended for us to eat animals, how come He made them out of meat?"

    Sarah Palin, Going Rogue

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    Re: In Christianity it is OK to Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by tismdarkling
    A) Jesus taught in parables

    Another references to peaceful living in the Christian Scriptures:

    Romans 12:17-18
    Don't mistreat someone who has mistreated you. But try to earn the respect of others, and do your best to live at peace with everyone.

    B)Early Christians were known for their non-violence
    Thats true, Jesus taught against seeking revenge on others. He did not teach that if someone is going to kill your son or daughter that you should stand there and watch it happen.

  6. #6
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    Re: In Christianity it is OK to Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by Purelyironic
    Thats true, Jesus taught against seeking revenge on others. He did not teach that if someone is going to kill your son or daughter that you should stand there and watch it happen.
    Because he did not give that specific example, does that mean his teachings reflect your statement?
    "I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly." Winston Churchill "When you put on a uniform there are certain inhibitions that you accept." Dwight D. Eisenhower "What then is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks, I do not know." Saint Augustine

  7. #7
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    Re: In Christianity it is OK to Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by manise
    Would Jesus support the use of nuclear weapons?
    I don't know. It would most likely depend on the circumstance. Jesus is God, and God certainly did not have a problem blasting Sodom and Gamora.

    Jesus does not want us to be the aggresors. He never gave us the go ahead to kill non believers where ever we find them(like Islam).

  8. #8
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    Re: In Christianity it is OK to Kill

    This link has pretty much summed up teachings of non-violence in the Christian Scriptures from the sayings of Jesus

    Here is some of the verses:

    "You have learnt how it was said: 'Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.' But I say to you, Offer the wicked man no resistance. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; if a man takes you to law and would have your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone orders you to go one mile, go two miles with him." Mt. 5.38-41

    "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy; But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those whose persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Mt. 5.43-46

    "If anyone wants to be a follower of mine, let him renounce himself and take up his cross and follow me. For anyone who wants to save his life will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it." Mt. 16.24-25

    "you know the commandments: you must not kill..." Mark 10.18

    "Be compassionate as your Father is compassionate. Do not judge, and you will not be judge yourselves; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned yourselves; grant pardon, and you will be pardoned." Lk 6.27

    "This is my commandment: love one another, as I have loved you." Jn. 14.22

    "mine is not a kingdom of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my men would have fought to prevent my being surrendered to the Jews. But my kingdom is not of this kind." Jn. 18.36

    _______________________________________________

    Jesus never once says that you should kill those who kill your loved ones, nor does he advocate violence. "if my kingdom were of this world, my men would have fought", "For anyone who wants to save his life will lose it",, "Love your enemies and pray for those whose persecute you", and "you know the commandments: you must not kill..." are hardly teachings that advocate the need for violence. I think that saying Jesus meant murder not killing does not take into account his entire teachings and have evolved as a justification for building our empires on this world which lead to eternal damnation.
    "I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly." Winston Churchill "When you put on a uniform there are certain inhibitions that you accept." Dwight D. Eisenhower "What then is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks, I do not know." Saint Augustine

  9. #9
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    Re: In Christianity it is OK to Kill

    You are correct. I honestly did not know the answer to your question. I played along to see what you knew that i did not.

    Christians should not join the army or support violence in any way. I just read a good article about it http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2...1182001/447373

  10. #10
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    Re: In Christianity it is OK to Kill

    It is never good to kill, but in cases of self defense and defending 'innocent others' I feel it can be morally and ethically mitigated.

    Jesus is well known for His continued emphasis on love, forgiveness, and "turning the other cheek." It is therefore surprising to find Jesus advising the disciples to buy a sword in Luke 22:36: "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." Did Jesus in this verse advocate the use of a sword for self-defense purposes?

    It is noteworthy that the Bible records many accounts of fighting and warfare. The providence of God in war is exemplified by His name YHWH Sabaoth ("The LORD of hosts"--Exodus 12:41). God is portrayed as the omnipotent Warrior-Leader of the Israelites. God, the LORD of hosts, raised up warriors among the Israelites called the shophetim (savior-deliverers). Samson, Deborah, Gideon, and others were anointed by the Spirit of God to conduct war. The New Testament commends Old Testament warriors for their military acts of faith (Hebrews 11:30-40). Moreover, it is significant that although given the opportunity to do so, none of the New Testament saints--nor even Jesus--are ever seen informing a military convert that he needed to resign from his line of work (Matthew 8:5-13; Luke 3:14).

    Prior to His crucifixion, Jesus revealed to His disciples the future hostility they would face and encouraged them to sell their outer garments in order to buy a sword (Luke 22:36-38; cf. 2 Corinthians 11:26-27). Here the "sword" (Greek: maxairan) is a dagger or short sword that belonged to the Jewish traveler's equipment as protection against robbers and wild animals. A plain reading of the passage indicates that Jesus approved of self-defense.

    Self-defense may actually result in one of the greatest examples of human love. Christ Himself said, "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:14). When protecting one's family or neighbor, a Christian is unselfishly risking his or her life for the sake of others.

    Theologians J. P. Moreland and Norman Geisler say that "to permit murder when one could have prevented it is morally wrong. To allow a rape when one could have hindered it is an evil. To watch an act of cruelty to children without trying to intervene is morally inexcusable. In brief, not resisting evil is an evil of omission, and an evil of omission can be just as evil as an evil of commission. Any man who refuses to protect his wife and children against a violent intruder fails them morally."

    http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/qselfdefense.html

    I would suggest that in Matthew 26:52. "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." -That this reflects Jesus' concern about the safety of his followers. That Jesus knew that the Temple guard were after Him alone, and that if they attempted to defend Him they too would be hurt. There is no record of Him speaking out against the common soldier. It was those in authority who acted hypocritically and malevolently that He had a beef with.
    Last edited by FruitandNut; May 15th, 2006 at 04:51 AM.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
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  11. #11
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    Re: In Christianity it is OK to Kill

    It is false that Christians ought not to join the military. It is false that Jesus advocated Ghandi-like pacifism. It is false that "turn the other cheek" is a reference to absolute-pacifism. Here are threads of relevancy.

    Jesus and Pacifism

    Was Jesus a Pacifist?



    The Christian and War
    (from another post) I subscribe to the Just War Theory, made popular by Augustine and Aquinas.

    There are many variations on the just war theory, but these are the basics:
    • There must be a just cause for the war.
      • War must be waged only in response to certain, grave and lasting damage inflicted by an aggressor.
      • The motive for war must be advancement of good or avoidance of evil.
      • The ultimate objective of war must be to bring peace.
      • Revenge, revolt, a desire to harm, dominate, or exploit and similar things are not justification for war.
    • Every possible means of peacefully settling the conflict must be exhausted first.
    • There must be serious prospects of success; bloodshed without hope of victory cannot be justified.
    • The war must be declared by a legitimate authority. Private individuals or groups should seek redress of their rights through their governments, not by acts of war.
    • The war must not cause greater evil than the evil to be eliminated.
    • Non-combatants (civilians) must not be intentionally harmed.
    • Prisoners and conquered peoples must be treated justly.
    http://www.twopaths.com/faq_war.htm



    Thou shalt not kill (actually, it's "murder")
    Thou Shalt not: Murder or Kill?



    Turn the other cheek
    From another post (copied/pasted), in the above Jesus/Pacifism thread...
    Also, you misunderstand the nature of the lesson of "turning the other cheek". It doesn't mean to turn the other cheek in all circumstances no matter what. Even Christ did not literally turn the other cheek when smitten by a member of the Sanhedrin...he objected and demanded an answer as to why he was struck:

    John 18
    22 When Jesus said this, one of the officials nearby struck him in the face. "Is this the way you answer the high priest?" he demanded.
    23 "If I said something wrong," Jesus replied, "testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?"

    As far as "turn the other cheek" teaching...

    The backdrop to this teaching is that the Jews considered it an insult to be hit in the face, much in the same way that we would interpret someone spitting in our face. Bible scholar R. C. Sproul comments: "What's interesting in the expression is that Jesus specifically mentions the right side of the face [Matthew 5:39]....If I hit you on your right cheek, the most normal way would be if I did it with the back of my right hand....To the best of our knowledge of the Hebrew language, that expression is a Jewish idiom that describes an insult, similar to the way challenges to duels in the days of King Arthur were made by a backhand slap to the right cheek of your opponent."

    The principle taught in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5:38-42 would thus seem to be that Christians should not retaliate when insulted or slandered (see also Romans 12:17-21). Such insults do not threaten a Christian's personal safety. The question of rendering insult for insult, however, is a far cry from defending oneself against a mugger or a rapist.

    Also, Purelyironic, that article you linked to is an op-ed (not a source of authority). It is written by someone who is uneducated in Christian doctrine, Hebraic and Greek languages and history. This is evident by the misuse and misunderstanding of the passages (eye for an eye, turn the other cheek, thou shalt not murder, etc...). While I didn't address "eye for an eye" in this post, I have elsewhere. Basically, it is a legal limitation on punitive damages to prevent the abuse of justice. If I find the essay, I'll link it here and update this post.
    Last edited by Apokalupsis; May 15th, 2006 at 08:57 AM.
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  12. #12
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    Re: In Christianity it is OK to Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut
    It is therefore surprising to find Jesus advising the disciples to buy a sword in Luke 22:36: "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." Did Jesus in this verse advocate the use of a sword for self-defense purposes?
    No, he is telling the apostles that the future of the Church is going to face a hostile world*. This is exemplified by the next passage: Then they said, "Lord, look, there are two swords here, "But he replied, "It is enough." (Luke 22:38). Jesus ends the discourse when they take him literally what he meant figuratively*.

    *from footnotes of the NAB

    The New Testament commends Old Testament warriors for their military acts of faith (Hebrews 11:30-40).
    Chapter 11 from Hebrews is not talking about military faith, but examples of faith from the ancesters in the Hebrew Scriptures. That "Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1), then the chapter tells about actions done by faith for a reward not of this world.

    I would suggest that in Matthew 26:52. "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." -That this reflects Jesus' concern about the safety of his followers. That Jesus knew that the Temple guard were after Him alone, and that if they attempted to defend Him they too would be hurt.
    It does reflect the love Jesus has for the welfare of his friends. But knowing that they will suffer horrible persecution, he doesn't kill the guards or the Jews or the Romans. He tells them to take strength in himself.

    "Anyone who loves his father or his mother more than he loves me, is not good enough for me. Anyone who loves his son or his daughter more than he loves me, is not good enough for me." (Matthew 10:37)

    "Anyone who is not willing to carry his cross and suffer with me, is not good enough for me." (Matthew 10:38)
    Jesus [is] [never] seen informing a military convert that he needed to resign from his line of work
    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    It is false that Christians ought not to join the military. It is false that Jesus advocated Ghandi-like pacifism. It is false that "turn the other cheek" is a reference to absolute-pacifism.
    Correct. Well, I have no problem with Christians joining the military (though I do think that Matthew 26:52 could be seen as anti-military), just killing. The Roman soldiers are the occupying forces, aka the police force and the military force. Turn the other cheek is a part of the pacifist doctrine, not the sole principle behind it.
    "I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly." Winston Churchill "When you put on a uniform there are certain inhibitions that you accept." Dwight D. Eisenhower "What then is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks, I do not know." Saint Augustine

  13. #13
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    Re: In Christianity it is OK to Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by tismdarkling
    No, he is telling the apostles that the future of the Church is going to face a hostile world*. This is exemplified by the next passage: Then they said, "Lord, look, there are two swords here, "But he replied, "It is enough." (Luke 22:38). Jesus ends the discourse when they take him literally what he meant figuratively*.
    There is much dispute among scholars about v38. Most of which I've read about the matter, disagree with your assertion. Furthermore, in v 36, it is NOT a figurative passage, but a literal.

    We know this, because of the grammar used. If sword is meant literally, then in the same context, so much the purse, the wallet and the cloak. What figurative meanings do they hold?

    Furthermore, Jesus in Mat 26:52, Jesus tells Peter to put the sword back in its place (not throw it away or sell it). Jesus never told any disciple (or anyone else) to not own/use a sword. Nor did Jesus ever denounce the military.

    Correct. Well, I have no problem with Christians joining the military (though I do think that Matthew 26:52 could be seen as anti-military), just killing. The Roman soldiers are the occupying forces, aka the police force and the military force. Turn the other cheek is a part of the pacifist doctrine, not the sole principle behind it.
    Turn the other cheek is already addressed above. And about this verse being "anti-military", I don't see how that is possible without engaging in eisegesis.
    This place should not be taken as a rejection of the sword's true place in society, but rather as a recognition on the part of Christ that an ordinary citizen should not resist lawful arrest by constituted authority. Christ did not command Peter to throw his sword away, but to put it in "its place." In a word, that is Christ's teaching on the entire subject. Paul described him that beareth the sword as a "minister of God unto thee for good" (Romans 13:4). In this scene there were two swords, that of the civil authority and that of Peter. Christ recognized both the legitimate authority of the first and the potential need and place for the second.

    Coffman, James Burton. "Commentary on Matthew 26". "Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament".

    Verse 52. Thy sword into his place. Into the sheath.


    For all they that take the sword, etc. This passage is capable of different significations.
    1. They who resist by the sword the civil magistrate, shall be punished; and it is dangerous, therefore, to oppose those who come with the authority of the civil ruler.
    2. These men, Jews and Romans, who have taken the sword against the innocent, shall perish by the sword. God will take vengeance on them. But,
    3. the most satisfactory interpretation is that which regards it as a caution to Peter. Peter was rash. Alone he had attacked the whole band. Jesus told him that his unseasonable and imprudent defence might be the occasion of his own destruction. In doing it, he would endanger his life, for they who took the sword perished by it. This was probably a proverb, denoting that they who engaged in wars commonly perished there.
    Barnes, Albert. "Commentary on Matthew 26". "Barnes' Notes on the New Testament".
    For all they that take the sword, shall perish with the sword.
    This is not to be understood of magistrates who bear not the sword in vain, are ministers of God for good, and revengers of evil works; but of private persons that use the sword, and that not in self-defence, but for private revenge; or engage in a quarrel, to which they are not called; and such generally perish, as Peter must have done, had it not been for the interposition of almighty power. Though this seems to be spoken not so much of Peter, and of the danger he exposed himself to, by taking and using the sword, and so to deter him from it, but rather of these his enemies: and as an argument to make and keep Peter easy and quiet, and exercise patience, since, in a little time, God would avenge himself of them; and that the Jews, who now made use of the sword of the Roman soldiers, would perish by the sword of the Romans, as in a few years after the whole nation did.

    Gill, John. "Commentary on Matthew 26:52". "The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible".
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    Re: In Christianity it is OK to Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    There is much dispute among scholars about v38. Most of which I've read about the matter, disagree with your assertion. Furthermore, in v 36, it is NOT a figurative passage, but a literal.

    We know this, because of the grammar used. If sword is meant literally, then in the same context, so much the purse, the wallet and the cloak. What figurative meanings do they hold?
    The passage is figurative.

    Peake's Commentary on the Bible
    "The disciples unperceptive literalism evokes an ironical dismissal of the subject"

    Harper Bible Commentary

    "Jesus uses the word sword symbolicly, but they hear him literally. Jesus drops the subject"

    The New Bible Commentary
    "But the disciples misunderstood him and produced weapons, 'Thats enough," said Jesus, to end the conversation which they had failed to understand.

    The figurative language of the bag and purse fortells the need to be prepared for the forecoming persecution of the Christian ministry. (footnotes of NAB)

    I cannot remember which commentary, I think Harpers, but they noted that the very words used to describe bag and purse show it's figurative nature. -I'll check up on that

    Quote Originally Posted by Apok
    Furthermore, Jesus in Mat 26:52, Jesus tells Peter to put the sword back in its place (not throw it away or sell it). Jesus never told any disciple (or anyone else) to not own/use a sword. Nor did Jesus ever denounce the military.
    It is an unnamed disciple who draws steel. Is this because Jesus condones the possible use of force or because, even now, the disciples are doubting him? "back in its place" doesn't mean that there is a use for but, considering the parable aforementioned from Luke, for the disciple to sheath their misunderstanding. The fact that Jesus never openly told a soldier to leave the military does not mean that he advocated "justified killing". For in order to do that, one must judge. You can be a police officer and not kill, that same goes for keeping the peace in the military.
    "I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly." Winston Churchill "When you put on a uniform there are certain inhibitions that you accept." Dwight D. Eisenhower "What then is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks, I do not know." Saint Augustine

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    Re: In Christianity it is OK to Kill

    Despite all the compelling arguments made, the simple truth is that this topic is a disputed teaching of Christian theology among Christian churches across the world. Many advocate pacifism, and many advocate altruistic killing as the heart of Jesus message.

    Although personally I think self defence is perfectly justified, and defending others against injustice is also perfectly justified I think moral "rules" being advocated by any side is COMPLETELY IRRELVENT TO JESUS CENTRAL MESSAGE (which is really all that is worth understanding).

    Especially as it concerns people interpretation of the moral rules Jesus appears to be lying down. Contrary to popular opinion, and much Christian theology, Jesus was not primarily a (and really many will take me to task on this one, including the non religious) a MORAL teacher. Those passages, although superficially in the context of morality, are not a descriptive prescription of how we are to live in the real world. In other words I don’t believe those passages are referring to a moral code that Christians can even follow. Jesus was actually countering the teachings of the Pharisees and religious leaders of that time, his teaching on the Sermon on the Mount and others are in actuality an example of how we can never achieve righteousness on our own. Although I believe that pacifism may be the ultimate form of God's true morality, these scriptures are intended to show us how it is impossible to live by the true law of God on our own terms.

    For instance, the common story told by Christians of the rich young ruler reveals the true nature of what I believe Jesus is really getting at. (Luke 18:18-30) The man must die to everything that he thinks will save him. His righteousness, his own MORALITY . He lived by the rules of the law; he was perfect in his living up to the moral standard set by the Law. Jesus however, sees through this facade and shows the truth of the mans heart. In his heart he is still a sinner, even if outwardly he is moral.

    It’s a big topic, but basically, most Christians are obsessed with living the "moral" life, with being clean and pretty. In reality Jesus message is that no such thing exists in this world, there is no stairway to climb to moral perfection. Even if you achieve what you think is "moral”, morality is not what God is primarily looking for. (If you think so, think about the heroes of the Bible: Abraham (offers up his wife twice, and sleeps with his servant to have a child) David (sleeps around, murders his friend, ect) Thus, Jesus really is telling us not how to live a moral life, but more how morality is not the measurement of how God accepts people or not.

    Luke 18:9-14 IS the perfect scripture to illustrate this "other" economy that is not about the rules of moral living.

    This relates to this topic by pointing out that what God wants and what we are capable of doing morally is not really the issue. I think morally God would likely prefer us not to have killed anyone. Ultimately there should be no reason any of us should kill each other for any reason. Not to mention if the Bible is correct, death itself is only an issue for a fallen world. Not a righteous one.

  16. #16
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    Re: In Christianity it is OK to Kill

    'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.' Even He who was without sin exercised MERCY.

    Except in the defence of the innocent, weak and vulnerable - and by choice of yourself - the best rules to live by are encompassed by Jesus' words in the 'Sermon on the Mount'; an ethos framed by the 'Prayer of St. Francis':

    Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
    Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
    Where there is injury, pardon;
    Where there is doubt, faith;
    Where there is despair, hope;
    Where there is darkness, light;
    Where there is sadness, joy.
    O Divine Master, grant that I may seek not so much to be consoled as to console; to be understood as to understand; to be loved as to love; for it is in giving that we receive; it is in pardoning that we are pardoned, and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  17. #17
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    Re: In Christianity it is OK to Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by tismdarkling
    The passage is figurative.

    Peake's Commentary on the Bible
    "The disciples unperceptive literalism evokes an ironical dismissal of the subject"

    Harper Bible Commentary

    "Jesus uses the word sword symbolicly, but they hear him literally. Jesus drops the subject"

    The New Bible Commentary
    "But the disciples misunderstood him and produced weapons, 'Thats enough," said Jesus, to end the conversation which they had failed to understand.

    You are confusing the 2 verses. Please provide links for your sources, or the entire contexts.

    The figurative language of the bag and purse fortells the need to be prepared for the forecoming persecution of the Christian ministry. (footnotes of NAB)

    I cannot remember which commentary, I think Harpers, but they noted that the very words used to describe bag and purse show it's figurative nature. -I'll check up on that
    How is it possible, that a "bag, purse, cloak" are figurative? In what way do they show upcoming persecution. You claiming it doesn't make it true. Let's see some support please.

    It is an unnamed disciple who draws steel. Is this because Jesus condones the possible use of force or because, even now, the disciples are doubting him? "back in its place" doesn't mean that there is a use for but, considering the parable aforementioned from Luke, for the disciple to sheath their misunderstanding. The fact that Jesus never openly told a soldier to leave the military does not mean that he advocated "justified killing". For in order to do that, one must judge. You can be a police officer and not kill, that same goes for keeping the peace in the military.
    It was Peter, not some unknown disciple. The same account is told in John 18:10.
    Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus.

    "In it's place", and the fact that Jesus does not condemn the use of the sword (as it had a purpose and Jesus supported this purpose) tells us that there is a time and place for the sword. You are trying to paint Jesus as this Ghandi-like pacifist, and this is patently false. Jesus did not advocate living by the sword (the phrase meanining living a life of aggressive violence), but he certainly supported self-defense. Jesus = God. God's nature is unchanging. God advocated necessary violence by Israel. There is a time and place for it. Abuse of it is evil. Self-defense or the protection of others through the use of the sword, is not evil. What is evil, is to allow someone to do evil, when you could have done something about it. In this case, you are not better than the criminal committing the evil.

    As far as being a policeman or in the military and being able to keep the peace and not kill, that's always preferred. I come from a family of police officers and military and served in the military (so you are barking up the wrong tree there). The purpose of law enforcement is not to kill, it is to use necessary force (with a sword [gun]) when it is called for in order to keep the peace.

    According to your absolutist pacifist claims, police are evil, as well as the military. I reject such a notion as they are necessary and are used for good. Anything can be abused...but abuse is not the norm. The norm is not evil, only abuse is.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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  18. #18
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    Re: In Christianity it is OK to Kill

    Quote Originally Posted by Apok
    You are trying to paint Jesus as this Ghandi-like pacifist, and this is patently false.
    Indeed, the clearing of the temple certainly was not an act of pacifism.
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

  19. #19
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    Re: In Christianity it is OK to Kill

    More on "pacifism" being taught in Christianity...

    Abraham was blessed by God (Gen 14:19) after enaging in a war against the unjust aggression of the kings who had captured his nephew Lot

    In Luke 3:14, soldiers come to inquire of John the Baptist about what they should do. John never told them to leave the army and instead, encouraged them to remain in the army by telling them that the should be content with their pay for serving the army. I mean if it was wrong to serve, they would have been told to right then and there.

    Likewise, Cornelius, in Acts 10, was a centurion. He was called a devout man (v. 2), and the Scriptures say that the Lord heard the prayers of Cornelius (v.4). When Cornelius becomes a Christian, Peter does not tell him to leave the army.

    Also, in Luke 22:36-38, Christ says that the one who has no sword should sell his robe and buy one. The apostles responded saying that they had two swords. Jesus responded saying that "it was enough." In other words, they did not need to get rid of their swords.

    The Apostle Paul accepted the protection of the Roman army to save his life from unjust aggressors (Acts 23). Indeed, he reminded the Roman Christians that God had given the sword to the king who did not bear it in vain (Rom 13:1-4).

    When Jesus returns to earth, He will come with the armies of heaven and will war against the kings of the earth (Rev 19:11-19).

    So from beginning to the end, the Bible is filled with examples of the justificaiton of war gainst evil aggressors.

    So as far as Matt 26:52, where Jesus commanded Peter to put away his sword...Peter was making two mistakes in using his sword. First, while the Bible permits the sword by the government for civil purposes (Rom 13:1-4), it does not endorse its use for spiritual ends. It is to be used by the state, not by the church. Second, Peter's use was aggressive, not purely defensive. His life was not being unjustly threatened. That is, it was not clearly an act of self-defense (Ex 22:2). Jesus appears to have endorsed the use of the sword in civil self-defense (Luke 22:36), as did the Apostle Paul (Acts 23).

    As far as capital punishment or more relevantly, authority of the state, Jesus recognized that Rome had capital authority and submitted to it (John 19:11). The Apostle Paul informed the Romans that governing authorites are ministers of God and they still possessed the God-given sword of capital authority (Romans 13:1, 4). So Jesus in no way did away with the just use of the sword by civil authorities. He simply noted that those who live lives of aggression often die by the same means.

    Edited from Prof. Norman Geisler's When Critic's Ask.
    Last edited by Apokalupsis; May 17th, 2006 at 11:58 AM.
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    Re: In Christianity it is OK to Kill

    I do not see how serving in the army is the same as killing. I think I brought the act of killing into discussion, please tell me how it relates to the military.

    The context in the passage and that is all the commentaries remark since they are single volume issues. However, the extended Peake's commentary does include your literal interpretation - under the label of what a minority of scholars believe.

    While Jesus did indeed submit to the authority on Earth, that did not mean that all actions of Earthly authority is a path that all righteous individuals should follow. I fail to see in your posts justification for killing.
    "I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly." Winston Churchill "When you put on a uniform there are certain inhibitions that you accept." Dwight D. Eisenhower "What then is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks, I do not know." Saint Augustine

 

 
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