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  1. #1
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    Truly Planned Parenthood

    My site partner and I were having a discussion about stupid parents on the way to lunch today, and he said: "Having a baby should be a privilege, not a right." I have been thinking about that statement, and to a certain extent I agree. I already am of the mindset that abortion is neither immoral nor unethical, so what about taking it one step further, and having forced abortions for people who obviously don't meet a simple set of parenting standards? The standards already in place for someone wanting to adopt a child will do nicely for this exercise.

    It has already been shown to some degree that crime was directly impacted when abortion was legalized, if we took this one step further, what else would be impacted in a positive way? I think perhaps dependance on welfare would be reduced, crime would drop further, public education would improve, street gangs would disappear, class sizes would drop, and within a generation or two, "bad" parts of town and ghettos might start improving, or cease to exist altogether...all because babies are not being born into families that cannot support them.

    What say you all?
    We took risks. We knew we took them. Things have come out against us. We have no cause for complaint. Scott, found in his diary after the party froze in Antarctica

  2. #2
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    Re: Truly Planned Parenthood

    Quote Originally Posted by PallidaMors
    My site partner and I were having a discussion about stupid parents on the way to lunch today, and he said: "Having a baby should be a privilege, not a right." I have been thinking about that statement, and to a certain extent I agree. I already am of the mindset that abortion is neither immoral nor unethical, so what about taking it one step further, and having forced abortions for people who obviously don't meet a simple set of parenting standards? The standards already in place for someone wanting to adopt a child will do nicely for this exercise.

    It has already been shown to some degree that crime was directly impacted when abortion was legalized, if we took this one step further, what else would be impacted in a positive way? I think perhaps dependance on welfare would be reduced, crime would drop further, public education would improve, street gangs would disappear, class sizes would drop, and within a generation or two, "bad" parts of town and ghettos might start improving, or cease to exist altogether...all because babies are not being born into families that cannot support them.

    What say you all?
    Sounds like eugenics to me. No thanks.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  3. #3
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    Re: Truly Planned Parenthood

    That if you ever pass something even close to this, you'll get war. Straight-up, shoot-on-sight war.

  4. #4
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    Re: Truly Planned Parenthood

    PM - I do feel that the fathering and mothering of children should not be taken lightly and irresponsibly. The problem is that there are precious few people who always act totally rationally when it comes to amour and nooky.

    Since I don't have your sense of moral liberation about abortion I don't go along with your idea of eugenics though. It smacks too much of the 'justification' used about some of Josef Mengele's experiments.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
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  5. #5
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    Re: Truly Planned Parenthood

    I disagree with all of your quick diagnosis of "Eugenics". In the first place, I don't think limited, uncoerced Eugenics is a bad idea at all, and in the second place, my argument is from the viewpoint of the child, not the race. I am simply proposing that we expand the rules and regulations that govern adoption agencies in the US to all parenting. If you aren't fit to adopt a child according to accepted standards, why on earth would you be fit to have one of your own?

    Now in addition, I am adding in the threat of forced abortion as a consequence if you don't go through the paperwork allowing you to have a child. I do not want the forced abortion bit to become the central theme of this thread...I'm using it as more of a plot device to force people to apply to become parents, so we can theorize the results. If someone can think of a better way, pipe up.
    We took risks. We knew we took them. Things have come out against us. We have no cause for complaint. Scott, found in his diary after the party froze in Antarctica

  6. #6
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    Re: Truly Planned Parenthood

    Quote Originally Posted by PallidaMors
    If someone can think of a better way, pipe up.
    Encourage marriage by every means possible and stigmatise bastard births. Then make divorce as difficult as possible to obtain. Hey, doesn't that sound a bit like things were 40 years ago? Statistics show that children brought up in intact marriages do better than those brought up within "relationships" or in single-parent families as a result of divorce.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  7. #7
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    Re: Truly Planned Parenthood

    Quote Originally Posted by PallidaMors
    Now in addition, I am adding in the threat of forced abortion as a consequence if you don't go through the paperwork allowing you to have a child. I do not want the forced abortion bit to become the central theme of this thread...I'm using it as more of a plot device to force people to apply to become parents, so we can theorize the results. If someone can think of a better way, pipe up.
    And who is going to enforce these forced abortions? The hospitals? Yeah right, this would only encourage potential mothers to take a risk and deliver their baby in their own homes. It would also facilitate the emergence of a new occupation - underground midwives.

    Sorry, your plan ain't gonna work.

  8. #8
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    Re: Truly Planned Parenthood

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested
    Encourage marriage by every means possible and stigmatise bastard births. Then make divorce as difficult as possible to obtain. Hey, doesn't that sound a bit like things were 40 years ago? Statistics show that children brought up in intact marriages do better than those brought up within "relationships" or in single-parent families as a result of divorce.
    What statistics? I know plenty of people brought up in single-parent homes who turned out pretty good, and plenty who had both parents who are now unworthy of society's pity....

    Also: Encourage marriage, stigmatise bastard births and make divorce as difficult as possible....shall we burn them at the stake then feed them to the lions as well? Gimme a break, D.I. You are starting to sound like Tom Delay:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Delay
    Guns have little or nothing to do with juvenile violence. The causes of youth violence are working parents who put their kids into daycare, the teaching of evolution in the schools, and working mothers who take birth control pills. [on causes of the Columbine High School massacre, 1999]
    We took risks. We knew we took them. Things have come out against us. We have no cause for complaint. Scott, found in his diary after the party froze in Antarctica

  9. #9
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    Re: Truly Planned Parenthood

    If you aren't fit to adopt a child according to accepted standards, why on earth would you be fit to have one of your own?
    I'm addressing this...since, it's something that I know a little something about. I can't talk about US adoptions, since we have only looked internationally..but, I can say this. Some of the regulations, and laws for adopting are really out there.
    China- applicants can't be younger than 30 or older than 54, how old you are determines what kind of child you can qualify for...healthy, medical problems, etc. You also can't have more than 4 kids. And you have to be married for more than 6 months.

    Korea- Parents may not weigh more than 30% of what is considered normal body weight for their respective heights.

    There are plenty more, but, that's just a sampling. There are also rules for you having to make a certain amount of money annualy, the number of divorces each member of the couple can have and where you live in the US can determine what kind of child you can adopt (healthy vs. medical problems) Applying these rules or ones similar to birth parents is ridiculous and unneeded. As stated before by someone in another thread...sometimes, the best parents are the ones who have unexpected children. If someone gets pregnant, decides THEMSELVES that they can't be parents...let them give the child up for adoption...they should make that decision themselves unless, after the child is born, they prove themselves to be abusive, or negeltful.(sp?) The country/government should have no say in what couple/ single person gets to have children. Think about it..who would qualify? What would be the qualifications? In such a money driven world...I imagine that values and morals would take a back seat to material possessions and status.
    I can only be who He allows me to be, I can only stand where He places me. 1Peter 5:6
    The true man wants two things: danger and play. For that reason he wants woman, as the most dangerous plaything. ---Friedrich Nietzsche

  10. #10
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    Re: Truly Planned Parenthood

    Imagine if we could come up with an easy, reversible way to make people infertile. Then offer reversals to basically anyone who asks?
    Everyone's happy. People who want to go hump like bunnies but don't want kids don't have to worry. No need for abortions except in the most extreme cases of say, imminent death for both mother and child.

    I'm sure we could all agree on some absolutely minimum requirements. Like being over 16, and say, not a convicted murderer.

    Obviously not going to solve every problem ever, but it would make things marignally better.

  11. #11
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    Re: Truly Planned Parenthood

    THAT is a fantastic idea. You think they wold invent something like that. Vasectomies are great..they CAN be reversed...but, no garuantee. Women can have their tubes "tied", but, we can still get pregnant...more than likely in our fallopian tubes...which can cause death. Inventing a reversible sterilization procedure...wouldbe PERFECT!!
    I can only be who He allows me to be, I can only stand where He places me. 1Peter 5:6
    The true man wants two things: danger and play. For that reason he wants woman, as the most dangerous plaything. ---Friedrich Nietzsche

  12. #12
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    Re: Truly Planned Parenthood

    Quote Originally Posted by southernbelle
    ...sometimes, the best parents are the ones who have unexpected children.
    Indeed they are. And sometimes those who protest that they would never make good parents, or could never cope with a child with a disability, when faced with the situation do as well if not better than their "planned parenthood" peers. And sometimes, the so-called experts who would presume to tell others how to manage their lives, turn out to be complete idiots and their advice as unfounded as a card-castle. As you say, southernbelle; who would qualify to impose their decision on the reproductive worth/ability of their fellow human?

    Such thinking as you display, PallidaMors, helps me to understand how Hitler managed to carry so many people with him. I've always wondered how it was possible - you have offered me an insight. Yours is one of the most illiberal propositions I have had the misfortune to encounter. Do you have any notion of what is meant by the term "freedom"? Or do you always see a cage, walk in, close the door behind you and throw away the key? The price of liberty is constant vigilance - against the likes of you.
    Love is: the highest good of an other at my expense.

  13. #13
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    Re: Truly Planned Parenthood

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucidium
    Imagine if we could come up with an easy, reversible way to make people infertile. Then offer reversals to basically anyone who asks?
    Everyone's happy. People who want to go hump like bunnies but don't want kids don't have to worry. No need for abortions except in the most extreme cases of say, imminent death for both mother and child.

    I'm sure we could all agree on some absolutely minimum requirements. Like being over 16, and say, not a convicted murderer.

    Obviously not going to solve every problem ever, but it would make things marignally better.
    I absolutely agree. I was thinking the exact same thing as your idea of an easy reversable way to make people infertile. I wonder if the Catholics would go for it?

    The below text has been automerged with this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by disinterested
    Such thinking as you display, PallidaMors, helps me to understand how Hitler managed to carry so many people with him. I've always wondered how it was possible - you have offered me an insight. Yours is one of the most illiberal propositions I have had the misfortune to encounter. Do you have any notion of what is meant by the term "freedom"? Or do you always see a cage, walk in, close the door behind you and throw away the key? The price of liberty is constant vigilance - against the likes of you.
    Maybe you should look up the causes of words like Overpopulation, Famine, Crime, Welfare, Pollution and Resource Depletion before you even BEGIN to compare me with Hitler.

    Also, you should really read up on Hitler before you go spouting things off like the above...he actually had alot of good ideas, which is why people started following him in the first place. I do not correlate the core subject of this thread with some of his bad ideas. This is simply an academic exercise to see if there is a sweeping, reasonable way to prevent kids from being born into a life that is setup for failure. So pull your head out of the kneejerk emotional watertrough and focus on the issue at hand.
    Last edited by PallidaMors; May 15th, 2006 at 09:06 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    We took risks. We knew we took them. Things have come out against us. We have no cause for complaint. Scott, found in his diary after the party froze in Antarctica

  14. #14
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    Re: Truly Planned Parenthood

    Quote Originally Posted by Luc
    Imagine if we could come up with an easy, reversible way to make people infertile.
    Perhaps some sort of pill? Or maybe a rubber barrier to prevent pregnancy?

    But more seriously that would be great. Administer it to kids at birth, and make the process like that of a driver's permit (paperwork and 20 question quiz in NY) to get it back.
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  15. #15
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    Re: Truly Planned Parenthood

    Perhaps some sort of pill? Or maybe a rubber barrier to prevent pregnancy
    I knew someone would say that....some people do not agree with the pill because of HOW it works...some people do not like the inconvience of using condoms...THAT is why a reversible sterilization would be ideal.

    I wonder if the Catholics would go for it?
    if they don't like it, they don't have to use it!
    I can only be who He allows me to be, I can only stand where He places me. 1Peter 5:6
    The true man wants two things: danger and play. For that reason he wants woman, as the most dangerous plaything. ---Friedrich Nietzsche

  16. #16
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    Re: Truly Planned Parenthood

    Just so long as the government cannot, agianst your will, sterilize you. That is crossing the line between preventing child-abuse/horrific parenting (2 + 2 = tornado), and taking charge of the single most intimate function a person/two people, can undergo.

    Tell a screaming mother she's too stupid to raise her son. Or forcibly sterilize her, and watch her cry. I see no way to impliment this PallidaMors, without violating the sanctinty of someone's body.

    P.S.- Even without this, the worls population is, I believe, expected to begin declining in 2050. I think.

  17. #17
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    Re: Truly Planned Parenthood

    Quote Originally Posted by SB
    I knew someone would say that....some people do not agree with the pill because of HOW it works...some people do not like the inconvience of using condoms...THAT is why a reversible sterilization would be ideal.
    And of course, pills and condoms are active preventative measures. Reversible sterilization would be passive, and thus be much more useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by TF
    Just so long as the government cannot, agianst your will, sterilize you.
    Which is, of course, one of the touchy parts of any institutionalized sterilization program. Ideally, picture this: a perfectly reversible, side-effectless, simple sterilization process is undergone at birth, and can be be reversed through a government-controlled process that can be obtained through a simple test on parenting (really basic stuff, ie never shake a baby, etc), and some paperwork. Requiring a minimal effort to become a parent would mean that laziness would result in non-childbirth, as opposed to the converse. It would require strict legal limits as to the government's power, though. These laws would have to be locked into place pretty firmly, as to ensure that the government cannot use this to any other ends.
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    Re: Truly Planned Parenthood

    Ilv- It seems simple, but it would never end there. This starts a whole new precendent, one that could lead to some very terrifing things. Once you legalize forced body alteration by the state, how long before enhanced eyesight programs are instituted? It follows the same rationale as sterilization. Then muscle augmentation. Think of the lives saved on that one. It is the logical course, because it would ensure public safety to a high degree. Seriously, if each of us was superstrong? We'd never worry about accidents agian.
    These are all little steps, but if you take it as it will enevitably lead, it is a dim, borg-esgue future we would be creating. The difference between that, and a paradise of really good-sighted, superstrong choosing when to get pregnant people. The difference being, solely, choice.

  19. #19
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    Re: Truly Planned Parenthood

    Quote Originally Posted by TF
    Ilv- It seems simple, but it would never end there. This starts a whole new precendent, one that could lead to some very terrifing things. Once you legalize forced body alteration by the state, how long before enhanced eyesight programs are instituted? It follows the same rationale as sterilization. Then muscle augmentation. Think of the lives saved on that one. It is the logical course, because it would ensure public safety to a high degree. Seriously, if each of us was superstrong? We'd never worry about accidents agian.
    These are all little steps, but if you take it as it will enevitably lead, it is a dim, borg-esgue future we would be creating. The difference between that, and a paradise of really good-sighted, superstrong choosing when to get pregnant people. The difference being, solely, choice.
    Slippery-Slope Fallacy, in that you haven't shown that X leads to Y. I suggested that we have strict, probably constitutional limits on what the government can and cannot do, should this plan ever be instituted. I see no reason why making having a child a choice, rather than simply the default result of sex would necessarily result in the government taking over control our bodies.

    Additionally, could not the same be said about nearly anything we allow the government to do?

    "If we let them put fluoride in the water, it seems beneficial now. But soon they'll be putting new stuff in there, to make us smarter, faster, stronger, until we become a race of super men."
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    Re: Truly Planned Parenthood

    Couldn't you have latined that up? Like ad slopa. Sounds more academic, and I can use it later. Ad slippy-slop man!

    Anyway, the government is taking us from a starting point, and detracting from us. If they can do this, there is no discourse when they do anything positive to us. Being strong, super men would kick ass, but that's not the point. The point is choice. I should be able to choose sterilization, I should be able to choose being a superman. Without that choice, anything done to us is seriously wrong.

    P.S.- "floride in the drinking water is a communist plot"

 

 
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