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  1. #1
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    Question Confederate Flag?

    Do you consider the confederate flag to be a symbol of racism? Why do you stand the way you do excluding biases such as (age, race, location, etc.)? Or are these biases the factors that determine the value of a symbol?
    If you cannot answer a mans argument, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names. - Elbert Hubbard :D

  2. #2
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    The confederat flag has grown to represent more than just racism. For many it is now and always has been more about the rebel spirit than racism. Regardless what it stands for, no one has the right to restrict its use.
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by AverageI.Q.
    Do you consider the confederate flag to be a symbol of racism? Why do you stand the way you do excluding biases such as (age, race, location, etc.)? Or are these biases the factors that determine the value of a symbol?
    First off, these biases are most certainly the factors that determine the value of [at least] this symbol. Meaning, the people of, say, Oregon, are probably not going to care as much about the Confederate flag as the people here in South Carolina do. Younger people here do not care about it nearly as much as the elders; and the majority of blacks here certainly don't care for it. Personally, I will acknowledge it's value as an historical symbol, but can also see why it offends people as well. I know plenty of people (my age and race) that will display the rebel flag 'loud and proud', and I'll admit that it does unnerve me slightly at times. Yet (in agreement with chad), I wouldn't go so far as to say it should be removed from anywhere, let alone the SC state capital. South Carolina (and other southern states) earned the right to wave that flag long ago; hell, they lost the civil war (which, sadly, many here will still deny :D ) let 'em keep the flag! It has a wealth of value to the state's history; if we can keep old slave trade buildings and old, decrepit slave housing, etc., why force the government to throw away a larger part of the history??
    Judge of a man by his questions rather than by his answers.--Voltaire

  4. #4
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    Exclamation

    Displaying of the flag personally is much differently than publically, i doubt that personal displayers mean for everyone to remember the rebels who died in the civil war. Just as the allies beat the axis power in ww2 they do not display the nazi flag publically however many personal displays of the swastica are made and looked down upon, but is that the same deal here with the rebel flag? Are displayers of the rebel flag inaccurately steroytyped negatively? Why isnt the union flag flown next to the rebel flag if they were promoting history. The fact that so many people care so much for history doesnt make sense if they did why are the ten commandments out? its a historical document. Why dont they set up a museum under the flag and promote battle ground preserving. I think that symbols should be left in the past why stir up old emotions again and again? to remember is one thing to practice is another. I personally have no problems with the flag and wouldnt mind seeing it flown but why? there are so many other flags that dont have any negative realtions connected with them. Just bugs me i guess what are your thoughts. let me know if i need to change my name to belowaverage I.Q.
    If you cannot answer a mans argument, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names. - Elbert Hubbard :D

  5. #5
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    Well, to tell you the truth, a lot of people are still bitter down here that the South lost. Kind of funny, considering nobody is still even alive from that era.

    I think it's fine where it is. Living where the Civil War started, it still can be a hot topic around here every once and awhile. I got into this rant over on another board about racism and slavery and whatnot, it's just really funny how people STILL get so worked up from this on both sides of the coin almost 150 years after the annihilation of the institution that used the Confederate flag as it's symbol.

    To me personally, it IS a reminder of heritage, as a lot of supporters here say. Unfortunately, it's a heritage of hate and misery for hundreds of thousands. So I personally think leave on the grounds as it is, and leave it off the roof of the state capitol building.
    Cranky old guy.

    =>Andacanavar<=

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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by AverageI.Q.
    Why isnt the union flag flown next to the rebel flag if they were promoting history.
    It's the South.

    The fact that so many people care so much for history doesnt make sense if they did why are the ten commandments out? its a historical document.
    Separation of church and state.

    Why dont they set up a museum under the flag and promote battle ground preserving.
    I've personally never been off of the east coast, so I don't know about that many places where the civil war is concerned. But I can tell you that Charleston in and of itself is -in effect- a museum. I also know of several battle groud memorials/preservation sites along the coast.


    let me know if i need to change my name to belowaverage I.Q.
    Hehe, no I don't think a name change is necessitated. :p The entire issue doesn't make much sense, I agree.....
    Judge of a man by his questions rather than by his answers.--Voltaire

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by AverageI.Q.
    Do you consider the confederate flag to be a symbol of racism? Why do you stand the way you do excluding biases such as (age, race, location, etc.)? Or are these biases the factors that determine the value of a symbol?
    I have lived in Texas my whole life. Around here, the Confederate flag is displayed generally either by rednecks or high school students, usually a bumper sticker on their pickup truck. I am sure its display is much more prevalent in what is considered the deep South (Mississippi, Georgia, etc.). I find it an interesting historical artifact, and certainly not offensive. On the other hand, I am not black.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by AverageI.Q.
    Do you consider the confederate flag to be a symbol of racism? Why do you stand the way you do excluding biases such as (age, race, location, etc.)? Or are these biases the factors that determine the value of a symbol?
    I find it interesting that we as a nation have tolerated the rebel flag for as long as we have. Forget about Racism -- it is the flag of rebels who chose to take up arms against our nation.

    And for any rebs out there -- I was born in the South.

    I forget what state it is but one of the SOuthern States came out with a new state flag where all the previous sate flags are displayed along the bottom -- I think this was a very appropraite use the Stars and Bars -- from a historical social point of view. I am suspect of anyone today who flies the stars and bars in front of their home every day -- and I know one or two who do -- It just tells me where they are coming from and it is not a healthy state of mind.

  9. #9
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    I don't see the problem. The flag is a symbol of an event now past. Why even worry about it? People may be prejudiced, but flags aren't.

    As a symbol, its a reminder of a desire for freedom and the spirit of Americana. In other words, we aren't afraid to fight for what we believe in, right or not. (That's how I see it, anyway.) For the record, I don't have one, but I really think the reactions to it are PC mania.

    Interestingly enough, I recently read that the Texas flag is the only state flag allowed to "officially" fly at the same height as the American flag, as Texas was once an independent nation.
    But if you do not find an intelligent companion, a wise and well-behaved person going the same way as yourself, then go on your way alone, like a king abandoning a conquered kingdom, or like a great elephant in the deep forest. - Buddha

  10. #10
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    Nah, it's because Texans have a big head. :p

    Yeah, it's part PC, but it's partially true about what people say too. I don't know, you can't please everyone. It's a dead issue in my opinion.
    Cranky old guy.

    =>Andacanavar<=

    "Comedy & Tragedy, wrapped into one."



  11. #11
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    Any flag that represents a nation or people that held ideas which limited the rights of human beings will be a fact of its history. I see a red flag, with a black circle and a white swastika and I immediately think of a certain period of history. That flag represents some horrific human ideologies. Recognition of this is not necessarily personal bias (although there is historical perspective and reader interpretation). The same goes with the Confederate flag. I see that and immediately recognize a number of historical facts about it.

    Should this flag be recognized as anything else? Sure, independence, geographic pride and identity, history, rebellion, etc. But how this symbol is used and seen by the population depends upon the maturity and wisdom of the people. It's no secret racism is still troubling. We all have to be responsible one way or another, especially in educating the young about both symbolisms and reality: the symbol of a flag as part of the past must be remembered AS the past, and the reality that all human beings deserve respect and an extension of equal rights. No one's rights should suffer due to the historical meaning a symbol has.
    Just another hostile non-theist.

  12. #12
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    F1Fan:

    I agree in principle, but at what point are we responsible for how people feel? I like the confederate flag. I like the south. I like the air of "southern gentility" that I grew up with. I take a certain amount of pleasure in viewing the Stars and Bars and remembering that despite the fact that we lost the war, (PURE CONJECTURE IF YOU LIVE BELOW THE MASON DIXON!) there is an inherent rebel spirit in those of us who live here.

    I know it is associated with other things, but that's how other people see it. I don't know that there is an answer to pleasing everyone...
    But if you do not find an intelligent companion, a wise and well-behaved person going the same way as yourself, then go on your way alone, like a king abandoning a conquered kingdom, or like a great elephant in the deep forest. - Buddha

  13. #13
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    If we tried to please everybody we wouldnt have a flag at all. The Indians would hate the U.S. flag for what it represents (oppresion, apartheid and mass genocide). Americans of Mexican desent would hate the American flag because we took 1/3 of Mexico away from there ancestors.
    Do or do not, there is no try. - Master Jedi Yoda
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    Actually, didn't Frank Oz do Bert as well? We're cousins! - Withnail in reference to Bert and Yoda

  14. #14
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    I bet this has been said before, but I'll say it again:
    Flying the Confederate Flag because you agree with state's rights or Southern pride is exactly like flying the Nazi swastika because you agree with Hitler's economic policies. And I'm sure that no one can effectivly argue that we should be allowed to fly swastikas in public view.

  15. #15
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    Your probavly joking again, but what the heck,

    Freedom of speech, there I have just effectively argued in favor of flying the swastika.
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish
    F1Fan:

    I agree in principle, but at what point are we responsible for how people feel?
    It depends. If you knew a female friend who was raped, and you two sat down to watch a movie, would you not think twice about watching one that you knew had a graphic rape scene?

    On the other hand, if you owned a shop in Jasper, TX some years ago, would you feel comfortable hanging a Confederate flag, or would you rethink it given the tensions there?

    We don't HAVE to be responsible for how people feel, but we can think about how others might be affected by choices we make.

    Oddly enough, in high school I went to a Halloween party at my German teacher's house. Being a WWII historian and making a war movie with my cousins, I had a black SS Major's uniform and wore it without thinking about what even normal people might think. Some time later I found out she and her husband were Jewish and had just escaped Germany in time. They invited me in their home nonetheless. I'm still ashamed to this day.

    I like the confederate flag. I like the south. I like the air of "southern gentility" that I grew up with. I take a certain amount of pleasure in viewing the Stars and Bars and remembering that despite the fact that we lost the war, (PURE CONJECTURE IF YOU LIVE BELOW THE MASON DIXON!) there is an inherent rebel spirit in those of us who live here.
    It is a nice looking flag. It is history. Still, you and I might be cool about it, but should we think about bubba who might see it as confirmation of his prejudices? I know it sucks. But we still live in a world that is quite volatile, rampant with bias and prejudice, being kept alive, in some part by the symbols being kept alive. I'm not against symbols, but I think it prudent to consider how far the society and community has let go of the ideas that are tied to such symbols. We don't have to be responsible for how others think. But we do have to be responsible for how we encourage and perpetuate others to think.

    I know it is associated with other things, but that's how other people see it. I don't know that there is an answer to pleasing everyone...
    There seldom is. My ex-girlfriend was always shocked when I didn't agree with everything she thought. Obviously, my opinion was always wrong. Obviously.
    Just another hostile non-theist.

  17. #17
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by F1Fan
    Oddly enough, in high school I went to a Halloween party at my German teacher's house. Being a WWII historian and making a war movie with my cousins, I had a black SS Major's uniform and wore it without thinking about what even normal people might think. Some time later I found out she and her husband were Jewish and had just escaped Germany in time. They invited me in their home nonetheless. I'm still ashamed to this day.
    Ouch! ;?

    Quote Originally Posted by F1Fan
    There seldom is. My ex-girlfriend was always shocked when I didn't agree with everything she thought. Obviously, my opinion was always wrong. Obviously.
    Ah.. The wonderful world of women.
    Cranky old guy.

    =>Andacanavar<=

    "Comedy & Tragedy, wrapped into one."



  18. #18
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    it is the flag of rebels who chose to take up arms against our nation.
    Really? Rebels by name but by design they believed themselves to be attempting to exercise their constitutional freedoms, defending their homeland and way of life.

    With the start of south carolina, the south officially seceded from the United States of America, before the start of the war they had written their own constitution, ratified by all those states no longer wishing to remain in union with the united states and even elected a president.....they did not choose to take up arms against the north. Naturally they knew they would indeed have to defend their rights.

    But it was most certainly the north who began warfare on by southern standards, what would now be another nation, and by northern standards, what would have been thier fellow coutrymen.

    So ironically, the north could be more acurately defined as having taken up arms against our nation than could the south. Had the south somehow won, it would have been a case of the little guy standing up for his constitutional rights against the big(ger) government. Which is where the spirit of being a "rebel" is most apparent.

    That spirit of rebelling for what you believe in against overwhelming odds is what the confederate flag means to many nowadays, be they from the north or south.(but especially many in the south)

    Of course it does not hold that symbolism for those being persecuted in the south or their sympathetic northern allies. For them, especially of course the blacks, it is a symbol of severe persecution that to a fair extent, still exists today.

    Which is why there is still so much controversy over that flag, more so than even the Nazi flag. Even most southerners would not take pride in what the swastika symbolizes. But there are still plenty around who are proud of what the stars and bars symbolizes. Until they all die off, or we absolutely obliberate any mistrust between the blacks and whites, the flag will continue to be a controversy............:O)

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chadn
    Your probavly joking again, but what the heck,

    Freedom of speech, there I have just effectively argued in favor of flying the swastika.
    I'm not joking.
    Freedom of speach does not cover everything in the public sector. In private, you can hate Jews all you want, but when you expose others to that you're breaking the law. Just like they didn't allow that 10-commandment statue in a government building. Thats why they made the South Carolina state building remove the confederate flag. I should have been more specific in my fist post, though; I was talking about flying the flag on public property.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberclown
    But it was most certainly the north who began warfare on by southern standards, what would now be another nation, and by northern standards, what would have been thier fellow coutrymen.
    Acutally, the begining of the war was when the South fired on the North's Fort Sumnter.

    So ironically, the north could be more acurately defined as having taken up arms against our nation than could the south.
    No, they couldn't. The South stopped being "our nation" (The United States of America) when they left the union. They were the Confederate States of America.

  20. #20
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    Acutally, the begining of the war was when the South fired on the North's Fort Sumnter.
    I could be very mistaken about my history; or maybe there were 2 Fort Sumters and someone just forgot to tell me---but Fort Sumter is and always has been in South Carolina (well, just off the coast). Thus, making it the south's Fort Sumter.
    Judge of a man by his questions rather than by his answers.--Voltaire

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