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  1. #141
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    Re: Confederate Flag?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    Said by those who don't truly understand it. Again, your not asking why they fly it, you are PROJECTING your own emotional feelings onto them.

    You can't argue with emotion. Thanks for sharing yours.
    Did I express emotion? Damn right. I also offered a lot of facts to support my feelings. Name one fact I offered which demonstrates that I misunderstand the situation. I am not asking why they fly it, because I don't care to hear the rationalization. I KNOW what the flag means culturally and historically. If you want to pretend its just a Southern expression of "f" the government or some appeal to states rights, then YOU support that position. The default position is that the flag is a Confederate symbol unfurled by a government which fought in order to maintain slavery. So, you have one of several positions:
    1) You can deny the civil war ever happened.
    2) You can deny that slavery was a major component of the civil war.
    3) You can offer some support that the South (both black and white residents) universally changed the meaning of the Confederate flag to something separate from slavery.
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  2. #142
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    Re: Confederate Flag?

    Quote Originally Posted by IBELSD
    Did I express emotion? Damn right. I also offered a lot of facts to support my feelings
    I don't think you did offer any facts, you offered your rant on the issue. There is no debate to be had when you beg the question and then come to the conclusion you start with.
    Now of course you add shifting the burden of proof, as though I must provide a counter argument or your position is automatically the correct one.
    All I really need to do is point out that your arguing from emotion and in the absence of facts to support it.

    Take this for example
    Quote Originally Posted by IBELSD
    The sad part of this story is that it took 150 years for that flag to finally get the reputation it deserves
    So it's current reputation as a purely racist symbol is new, yet we all must take your position that it was really a racist symbol then as well. you know, in the context of the history it occurred in.
    Like, maybe why the common soldier was fighting under it.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  3. #143
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    Re: Confederate Flag?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    I don't think you did offer any facts, you offered your rant on the issue. There is no debate to be had when you beg the question and then come to the conclusion you start with.
    Now of course you add shifting the burden of proof, as though I must provide a counter argument or your position is automatically the correct one.
    All I really need to do is point out that your arguing from emotion and in the absence of facts to support it.

    Take this for example

    So it's current reputation as a purely racist symbol is new, yet we all must take your position that it was really a racist symbol then as well. you know, in the context of the history it occurred in.
    Like, maybe why the common soldier was fighting under it.
    1. Because something is said wth emotion, does not mean it is incorrect.
    2. You cherry-picking one sentence does not an entire post make.
    For instance:
    a) Did the Union win the Civil War?
    b) Was the Confederate flag the banner of losing side in the Civil War?
    c) Was the Civil War based on the South's desire to continue the practice of slavery?

    These are all facts I used in making my argument. However, you'd like to ignore those and create some straw man whereby my entire post was simply a "rant". Why don't you address the post in its entirety rather than picking and choosing the phrases you find subjective? So, again, in my post, which contained plenty of factual support for my position, you may either offer a rebuttal or I'll consider you unable to do so. If the former, then we can continue with a fine debate. If the latter, then I'll consider that you have dropped any opposition to my arguments and my arguments will stand.
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  5. #144
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    Re: Confederate Flag?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So it's current reputation as a purely racist symbol is new,
    Well, historically, as in during the civil war and after, the Confederate flag was not one to be proud of by most Americans. Historically, the Confederate flag was flown by traitors to the United States who sadly slaughtered more than 110,000 U.S. soldiers (some of which were their own brothers and family members).
    http://www.historynet.com/civil-war-casualties

    These people in the south basically created their own nation and called it the Confederate States of America. They also issued their own currency, developed an army, elected their own president and Congress and then went to war with the United States of America. It was this flag that was carried on to the battlefields by Confederate troops during the Civil War as they killed U.S. soldiers.

    The Confederate flag, since the civil war, does not generally have a positive reputation but one of divisiveness. The Civil war did happen and hopefully, as Americans, we have gotten beyond the divide and conquer syndrome.
    Last edited by eye4magic; June 29th, 2015 at 12:20 PM.
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  6. #145
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    Re: Confederate Flag?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States
    "Our new Government, is founded upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."
    The Confederacy was racist, their flag was racist. Case closed. It might as well be a Swastika. Regardless of whatever else it was or is, it was and is most definitely racist.

  7. #146
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    Re: Confederate Flag?

    Small side notes,

    Eye, they wouldn't necessarily be traitors given that they argued the federal government had broken its part of the pact established in the Constitution. You aren't in breach of contract (to use an analogy) because you don't pay a supplier that didn't deliver the goods on time.


    As for the Confederacy being racist, sure not really much argument there, but so was the North, in fact in many cases far more racist than the South. We need to remember that Lincoln's position during the Lincoln-Douglas debates was that blacks were inherently incapable of being intelligent enough to enjoy the franchise, he thought they needed to be sent back to Africa for fear of dragging down the nation, while Douglas thought that slavery was a good example of "ennobling the savages" and making them closer to whites. Is that latter idea racist? Sure. But oddly, not as racist as the former.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
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  8. #147
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    Re: Confederate Flag?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    they argued the federal government had broken its part of the pact established in the Constitution.

    Which part?
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  9. #148
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    Re: Confederate Flag?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyX View Post
    Which part?
    Well amongst the many complaints (Slavery clearly being one) was a series of tarriffs and duties (Morrill's tarriff being the usually cited example, but that is only because of its proximity, the process had been ongoing for about 30 years) established by the federal government that favored northern industrialists at the expense of southern consumers. These tarriffs raised the price of manufactured goods in a protectionist manner that southern representatives argued was well outside the scope of the Constitution (which clearly wasn't originally intended to be an instrument for redistribution).

    The antebellum US also saw a series of legal cases (of which Dred Scott is the most famous because it is slavery related, but was not the most controversial contemporarywise) in which the interstate commerce clause and the General welfare clause saw their first major expansions. Southerners generally felt that these issues undermined their ability to pass state level legislation or conduct internal business reform.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
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  10. #149
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    Re: Confederate Flag?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Eye, they wouldn't necessarily be traitors given that they argued the federal government had broken its part of the pact established in the Constitution. You aren't in breach of contract (to use an analogy) because you don't pay a supplier that didn't deliver the goods on time.
    Yes, there were side-issues. Or, issues besides slavery, itself. Even slavery was deeply rooted in the South's perceived economic survival. Still, at the end of the day, the civil war was about the South's right to own and possess slaves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    As for the Confederacy being racist, sure not really much argument there, but so was the North, in fact in many cases far more racist than the South. We need to remember that Lincoln's position during the Lincoln-Douglas debates was that blacks were inherently incapable of being intelligent enough to enjoy the franchise, he thought they needed to be sent back to Africa for fear of dragging down the nation, while Douglas thought that slavery was a good example of "ennobling the savages" and making them closer to whites. Is that latter idea racist? Sure. But oddly, not as racist as the former.
    Let's put this into context. In 1850, everyone was pretty much a racist. From the U.S. to China, people distrusted other races and looked to explain why their tribe/race was the greatest. It was around this time that a book would be written by Nietzche entitled Superman... and we all know where that led us. The issue of the civil war wasn't racism. Not many in the North were arguing that whites and blacks were equal. However, they were arguing that blacks were human and that humans should not be considered property. On this fundamental disagreement, the Confederacy was born and its flag was raised. This is just simple historical fact.
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  11. #150
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    Re: Confederate Flag?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So it's current reputation as a purely racist symbol is new, yet we all must take your position that it was really a racist symbol then as well. you know, in the context of the history it occurred in.
    Like, maybe why the common soldier was fighting under it.

    ... or else are extremely ignorant of history if you honestly believe that the Confederate flag only recently has been used as a symbol of racism. [edited]

    In the opening address of the Confederacy, then president Jefferson Davis said:

    "[The] great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery – subordination to the superior race – is his natural and moral condition."

    You see, that would be the literal start of Confederacy, and that would be indisputable racism.

    Okay, how was it used after the failed treason "rebellion"?

    Let's take this example from 1957:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is a Confederate flag that was brought to Little Rock, AK, outside of a school that was converted to an integrated school system that day. The white men here (who are presumably part of the KKK) showed up to bully and berate African-American students. So there's at least one example out of a history of examples that shows that you don't know what you're talking about, MT.

    Oh, also it was used during the Dixiecrats, a party setup by the KKK to maintain and uphold Jim Crow laws. Here's one of their political buttons from the 1940's:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Long story short: No, MT, you're completely wrong on this issue and you should abandon this openly specious and absurd claim..





    PS: Normally, I'd leave the South alone and let them be. But honestly, this really is profoundly dishonest. I don't care if someone wears the flag on their own property. But displaying a flag who's common motto is "The South will rise again!" on government property does smack as slightly treasonous and falls under the literal definition of "anti-American", yes. There's nothing more abhorrent than hearing conservatives blather on about how Muslims, atheists, gays, liberals, (formerly blacks), etc are "anti-American," all whilst displaying proudly a flag that was literal treason against America. It tells you exactly how seriously you should take their claims about what the "right" version of America is. After the South lost, it instituted over 80 years of Jim Crow Law that had forced the Federal government to intervene a second time into their business because they couldn't stop themselves from being racist pricks to non-whites in the form of lynching and murder. Oh by the way, they also used the flag those whole 80 years, too, as a sigil of their white pride. So to both display a sign of racism and treason on their front doors --when they're so f***ing caught up in how liberals, socialists, black rights activists, gay rights activists, etc, are all anti-American and trying to destory America-- makes me feel no problem in telling these Southern conservatives that they need to shut up and take the flag down now.
    Last edited by eye4magic; July 1st, 2015 at 08:19 AM.
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  13. #151
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    Re: Confederate Flag?

    Quote Originally Posted by GP
    You are completely full of crap or else are extremely ignorant of history
    You seem to be completely ignorant of the context of what you quoted.

    Quote Originally Posted by GP
    Long story short: No, MT, you're completely wrong on this issue and you should abandon this openly specious and absurd claim. It's fine if Southerners want to try to redefine the flag to be what they want it to be now, but to openly deny the history of this flag and what it has historically meant is the pinnacle of intellectual cowardice and dishonesty.
    You sufficiently burned down that strawman. Thanks for playing.
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  14. #152
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    Re: Confederate Flag?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Yes, there were side-issues. Or, issues besides slavery, itself. Even slavery was deeply rooted in the South's perceived economic survival. Still, at the end of the day, the civil war was about the South's right to own and possess slaves.
    I think that is like saying the Revolution was solely about the stamp act. That act was a flash point sure, but it certainly wasn't even the primary grievance most colonists had, nor was it the issue that actually brought soldiers to the battlefield. The majority of southerners, and quite a few states in general had little actual stake in slavery (many southern farmers were harmed by the institution), it seems odd for them to have fought for an institution that either didn't benefit them or actively harmed them. It also seems odd to have taken up arms primarily on an issue not seriously on the table at that point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd
    However, they were arguing that blacks were human and that humans should not be considered property. On this fundamental disagreement, the Confederacy was born and its flag was raised. This is just simple historical fact.
    I think there were certainly some having those debates, but that wasn't the debate in general. As I point out to GP below, it was largely on whether the black man was capable of receiving civilization. Remember a large portion of the Lincoln Douglas debaters and the general discussion in Congress at the time was whether slavery improved blacks, or whether they weren't "reformable' and should be sent back to Africa.

    Now that isn't to say there weren't those who thought blacks were generally equal to whites, and it is their quotes we usually learn in history books, but that was hardly the main stream discussion going on at the time.




    Quote Originally Posted by GoldPhoenix View Post
    In the opening address of the Confederacy, then president Jefferson Davis said:

    [INDENT][I]"[The] great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man;
    You realize that this was Lincoln's position too right? That even abolistionists didn't think blacks were equal to whites right? The debate, so well summarized in the Lincoln/Douglas debates was whether slavery was capable of "improving" blacks so that they could live along side whites (Davis and Douglas position) or whether blacks were inherently and permanently inferior and should be "returned" to their native habitat (Lincoln's position).
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  15. #153
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    Re: Confederate Flag?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    I think that is like saying the Revolution was solely about the stamp act. That act was a flash point sure, but it certainly wasn't even the primary grievance most colonists had, nor was it the issue that actually brought soldiers to the battlefield. The majority of southerners, and quite a few states in general had little actual stake in slavery (many southern farmers were harmed by the institution), it seems odd for them to have fought for an institution that either didn't benefit them or actively harmed them. It also seems odd to have taken up arms primarily on an issue not seriously on the table at that point.




    I think there were certainly some having those debates, but that wasn't the debate in general. As I point out to GP below, it was largely on whether the black man was capable of receiving civilization. Remember a large portion of the Lincoln Douglas debaters and the general discussion in Congress at the time was whether slavery improved blacks, or whether they weren't "reformable' and should be sent back to Africa.

    Now that isn't to say there weren't those who thought blacks were generally equal to whites, and it is their quotes we usually learn in history books, but that was hardly the main stream discussion going on at the time.






    You realize that this was Lincoln's position too right? That even abolistionists didn't think blacks were equal to whites right? The debate, so well summarized in the Lincoln/Douglas debates was whether slavery was capable of "improving" blacks so that they could live along side whites (Davis and Douglas position) or whether blacks were inherently and permanently inferior and should be "returned" to their native habitat (Lincoln's position).
    1. Your analogy is way off the mark. The Revolution is generally regarded as an issue over economic control where taxes where one of the main issues. The stamp act was a single issue of taxation that led to increased dissent. Your analogy would be comparing the Missouri Compromise to the Stamp Act. Both were representative of the issue, but neither were the direct causes of war. Rather, the analogy is that the Revolutionary War was fought largely over taxation just as the Civil War was largely fought over slavery. Both wars had other issues, but the two I just named would be considered primary causes. GP offered quite a bit of historical support tying slavery to the confederacy.

    2. Again, and you kind of brushed this aside, I don't think many historians would claim racism didn't exist in the North. Certainly, Lincoln is recorded early in his career as believing that blacks were inferior.
    "will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, he began, going on to say that he opposed blacks having the right to vote, to serve on juries, to hold office and to intermarry with whites. What he did believe was that, like all men, blacks had the right to improve their condition in society and to enjoy the fruits of their labor. In this way they were equal to white men, and for this reason slavery was inherently unjust."
    http://www.history.com/news/5-things...d-emancipation

    Here, Lincoln is clearly indicating that as you said he believed blacks were inferior. However, he also believed blacks had rights, were people, and that slavery was unjust. As I have said before, the Civil War was not about equality. It was about slavery.

    So, while you have added to MT's obfuscation of the Confederacy and its primary symbol, the Confederate flag, you have not shown that the Confederacy didn't primarily exist over the issue of slavery.
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  16. #154
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    Re: Confederate Flag?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Both wars had other issues, but the two I just named would be considered primary causes. GP offered quite a bit of historical support tying slavery to the confederacy.
    No, GP offered evidence that the flag has been used in later racially charged events (as has the US flag and a ton of flags), he offered no direct evidence concerning causes of the civil war, just a single quote about how Davis made a comment GP found racist. He offered no evidence as to the relative merits of individual claims towards secession. And the analogy follows even if I grant your change. Taxes get a lot of play in History textbooks, but were largely ignored by the large contingent of colonists who simply ignored the nearly unenforceable provisions. Taxes also don't do a good job explaining why the revolt broke out when it did given that most of the offending acts had already been repealed. Similarly, it makes little sense for the South to get a large secession movement prior to emancipation becoming a politically viable issue.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd
    Here, Lincoln is clearly indicating that as you said he believed blacks were inferior. However, he also believed blacks had rights, were people, and that slavery was unjust. As I have said before, the Civil War was not about equality. It was about slavery.
    You say that, but the quote doesn't offer any such evidence. I agree that he thought slavery was unjust, but the context of the debate you are quoting for doesn't at all imply it is because he thinks blacks had some fundamental right to liberty, it was because it was cruel to keep them in bondage given that they couldn't, in his view, progress to becoming fit to live with whites. Let's remember what Lincoln is proposing then, and all the way through his presidency, the mass deportation of blacks back to Africa. Not their remaining in the US with citizenship rights.


    Quote Originally Posted by Iblsd
    So, while you have added to MT's obfuscation of the Confederacy and its primary symbol, the Confederate flag, you have not shown that the Confederacy didn't primarily exist over the issue of slavery.
    Nonsense. As I pointed out earlier, while slavery was clearly an issue, it makes no sense to form a new government primarily over an issue that isn't even a concern at the time of founding, and what's more to sacrifice your life (as 160,000 did in the South) to support an economic institution you gain no benefit from, and are likely harmed by.

    Oddly, your argument seems to be that a large majority of Southerners not only went to the polls, but then risked their lives to defend an institution that was:

    a) not threatened

    and

    b) of no benefit, and often actively harmed them.
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  17. #155
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    Re: Confederate Flag?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    You realize that this was Lincoln's position too right? That even abolistionists didn't think blacks were equal to whites right? The debate, so well summarized in the Lincoln/Douglas debates was whether slavery was capable of "improving" blacks so that they could live along side whites (Davis and Douglas position) or whether blacks were inherently and permanently inferior and should be "returned" to their native habitat (Lincoln's position).
    No, you meant that Lincoln's opinions were also racist (He didn't want them enslaved, which was Davis' opinion; you also should note that Lincoln never sent blacks back to Africa at any point). Regarding abolitionists, some of them supported equality between blacks and whites --they were just vastly outnumbered by those who didn't. With that said, I agree with you that most abolitionists were racists. So what?

    1.) Being racist isn't a Boolean-valued thing. Saying "Blacks and whites aren't be equal" is racist. Saying "Blacks and whites aren't equal and therefore we should enslave them all because it's the only moral thing to do" is much, much more racist. So even though the Union wasn't resolving all of racism, it was pushing in the right direction. Therefore, it's remembered as being on the right side of history, relative to what was going on. So saying "Oh but the North was racist, too, so isn't it all a wash?" is rather astoundingly poor argument.

    2.) The question is what interpretations people have of the Confederate flag and what it symbolizes to them. Saying that there's no relationship between the Confederate flag and racism is just specious. This is indisputable. I'll grant you that for some Southerners, they don't condone or acknowledge the racism in the period the flag was made, and instead they view it as a symbol of Southern pride. Fine. That doesn't mean it isn't also a symbol of racism for the reasons listed.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

  18. #156
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    Re: Confederate Flag?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch
    Nonsense. As I pointed out earlier, while slavery was clearly an issue, it makes no sense to form a new government primarily over an issue that isn't even a concern at the time of founding, and what's more to sacrifice your life (as 160,000 did in the South) to support an economic institution you gain no benefit from, and are likely harmed by.
    The idea that the Civil War was not about slavery is listed as a "Civil War Myth" here (http://www.livescience.com/13673-civ...ary-myths.html). There were Southern voices that named slavery as a basis for secession, war, and the Confederacy itself. See e.g. here (http://teachingamericanhistory.org/l...thout-slavery/).

    Do you have a scholarly basis for your assertion here? A consensus among historians of the period?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldPhoenix
    2.) The question is what interpretations people have of the Confederate flag and what it symbolizes to them. Saying that there's no relationship between the Confederate flag and racism is just specious. This is indisputable. I'll grant you that for some Southerners, they don't condone or acknowledge the racism in the period the flag was made, and instead they view it as a symbol of Southern pride. Fine. That doesn't mean it isn't also a symbol of racism for the reasons listed.
    I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to establish here, or what relevance it bears to the topic at hand. Sure, there's clearly an association between the Confederate flag and the Confederacy/Civil War, which is pretty uncontroversially a connection to racism. And clearly there have been racist groups who have used the flag as a symbol to represent themselves, their goals and aspirations, etc.

    So in that sense, it is a symbol of racism. But it isn't only that, so if you're intending to support a conclusion along the lines The Confederate flag shouldn't be seen in public and shouldn't appear on government property, I'm not sure how you'd get there from here.
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    Re: Confederate Flag?

    More than 75% of African Americans view the flag as racist. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/p...trol/29500975/ That is the reason why it should not be flown on government property. It doesn't matter what white people think because they were not the victims, they were the perpetrators. You wouldn't ask a rapist if he is offended by the nude photos he posted of his victim, you would ask the victim and the victim's family.

    For the state government to fly the flag, they are showing that they do not care that they are offending African Americans by celebrating a racist symbol. Because of this, the flying of the flag by the government is itself a racist act. At least individuals can claim ignorance when flying the flag, and claim that they don't know that African Americans think it is racist, but the government certainly knows better.

    For those of you who have no sympathy for the people who are offended by the flag, I propose that you imagine that ISIS kidnapped, enslaved, and beat your family members. Then imagine that your state government (or neighbor) decided to fly the ISIS flag. I don't think you would be receptive to any rationalization that the flag is a symbol of support for Middle East self-determination.

  20. #158
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    Re: Confederate Flag?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris
    More than 75% of African Americans view the flag as racist. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/p...trol/29500975/ That is the reason why it should not be flown on government property. It doesn't matter what white people think because they were not the victims, they were the perpetrators. You wouldn't ask a rapist if he is offended by the nude photos he posted of his victim, you would ask the victim and the victim's family.
    Well, there's a few things here.

    One, how does one's race or ethnicity make one morally culpable for the acts done by anyone sharing that race or ethnicity? This "racial aggregation" reasoning is used when people view blacks as criminals due to the criminal acts of individual black people.

    Two, what does it matter if a symbol gives offense? If the U.S. becomes overwhelmingly orthodox Muslim, must our government buildings divest themselves of all images of people? Or what if the majority white population is overtly racist and hates any images of black people? It's not at all clear to me that a symbol should be removed merely on the basis that such-and-such a proportion of the population finds it offensive.

    For those of you who have no sympathy for the people who are offended by the flag, I propose that you imagine that ISIS kidnapped, enslaved, and beat your family members. Then imagine that your state government (or neighbor) decided to fly the ISIS flag. I don't think you would be receptive to any rationalization that the flag is a symbol of support for Middle East self-determination.
    I think most people empathize with blacks regarding the Civil War. The question here isn't just about sympathy, but rather is a question of principle regarding the justification for removing images from government institutions.
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  21. #159
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    Re: Confederate Flag?

    This is my point which people are ignoring.
    During the Civil war there were 2 categories for the meaning behind the flag. The first was decidedly political, and that is the side that is generally being discussed here. Everyone is quoting what the politicians said here or there. Which is a find discussion to have. GP did a good job of acting as though I don't recognize the first as being related to slavery at all, and that was fun. The second reason is the one I am pointing to, and talking about. This reason is not countered by the first and has been hit on by Squatch but IMO not responded to at all. The second reason is that of the average soldier of the south. Why the individuals were fighting.
    Now IBELSD had a wonderful rant about how the average soldier was fighting for his right to one day own a nigger, because every southerner just longed for the day they could have a nigger of their very own. This seems pretty implausible as an explanation for the whole, and in light of the evidence below is completely unsupported. I mean, would you go to war so bill gates can keep his rocket ship, to ensure that you will have a right to maybe be bill gates one day and have your own rocketship? I don't think so. No, most of them and especially expressed by the generals that were leading these men into battle, were fighting for their homes to not be invaded by foreign troops.
    ---


    “Every man should endeavor to understand the meaning of subjugation before it is too late… It means the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy; that our youth will be trained by Northern schoolteachers; will learn from Northern school books their version of the war; will be impressed by the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors, and our maimed veterans as fit objects for derision… It is said slavery is all we are fighting for, and if we give it up we give up all. Even if this were true, which we deny, slavery is not all our enemies are fighting for. It is merely the pretense to establish sectional superiority and a more centralized form of government, and to deprive us of our rights and liberties.”
    Maj. General Patrick R. Cleburne, CSA, January 1864


    “As for the South, it is enough to say that perhaps eighty per cent. of her armies were neither slave-holders, nor had the remotest interest in the institution. No other proof, however, is needed than the undeniable fact that at any period of the war from its beginning to near its close the South could have saved slavery by simply laying down its arms and returning to the Union.”
    Major General John B. Gordon, from his book, Causes of the Civil War.


    “It is stated in books and papers that Southern children read and study that all the blood shedding and destruction of property of that conflict was because the South rebelled without cause against the best government the world ever saw; that although Southern soldiers were heroes in the field, skillfully massed and led, they and their leaders were rebels and traitors who fought to overthrow the Union, and to preserve human slavery, and that their defeat was necessary for free government and the welfare of the human family. As a Confederate soldier and as a citizen of Virginia, I deny the charge, and denounce it as a calumny. We were not rebels; we did not fight to perpetuate human slavery, but for our rights and privileges under a government established over us by our fathers and in defense of our homes.”
    Colonel Richard Henry Lee, C.S.A.


    “When the South raised its sword against the Union’s Flag, it was in defense of the Union’s Constitution.”
    Confederate General John B. Gordon



    Many high-ranking Confederates showed reasons for enlisting other than slavery. The examples consist of generals (or future generals). Robert E. Lee believed in neither slavery nor secession, but would fight for his old Virginia.12 Ambrose Powell Hill, better known as A.P. Hill, chose to fight for the defense of his state, Virginia, even thought he was deeply opposed to slavery.13 John C. Breckenridge, of Kentucky (a boarder state), a one-time Vice-President of the United States, sided with the Confederacy primarily for his home-state's self-defense from the North.14 The individual motivations are endless. http://www.wvculture.org/history/wvhs1404.html



    ------
    From the above we should draw that the people on the ground fighting under the flag were not doing so out of hatred for blacks, the desire to preserve slavery, or any racist reason what so ever. Rather it was for a very noble reason of defense of the const, defense of their homes and women from foreign invasion. The north was viewed as oppressors (some of the quotes below that fall under the first category I spoke of support that.) both before the war and after. This quote from Lee showing to what extent they were viewed as such after the war.

    “Governor, if I had foreseen the use those people designed to make of their victory, there would have been no surrender at Appomattox Courthouse; no sir, not by me. Had I foreseen these results of subjugation, I would have preferred to die at Appomattox with my brave men, my sword in this right hand.”
    General Robert E. Lee, August 1870 to Governor Stockdale of Texas


    We should come away with the warning that the history books are being written from the side of the north, and that as such it does not contain the whole truth. We should take as serious the attempt to cast the war in a moral light as a calculated maneuver and as propaganda to some extent. This was obvious to the south at the time, but now with a hundred years of indoctrination it is apparently less obvious.

    My main point(though the quotes below tempt me to change that focus) is that we can set aside the political meaning of the flag because those politics are no longer at play. All that remains is the people who fought. Those people were not called traitors but were given honored burials by the U.S. (as I understand it). So to now retroactively label them traitors seems, well it seems to require a bit more support and reasoning in relation to history. Some explanation as to why those who were killed by these soldiers(the union) would honor them? It seems that the people of the present want to take an even more harsh approach to reconstruction then the people of that time did (and it was no bed of roses then). All that has survived the war of the south is the people, the descendants of the soldiers as men. So the flag is left with no more meaning than that which the individuals decided to lay down their lives, that reason was decidedly NOT racist and as such the flag is not a racist symbol and legitimately so. Others should be persuaded by this fact, because it hears the side of those actually carrying the flag and those that actually died under it. Rather than trying to dishonor the dead as racists and thus slander those that can no longer defend themselves. We should view the flag, not in the light of the nation that died and never was, but through the people(individuals) who fought, died and lived on.

    As for me personally, this little bit hits about as close to home as possible as it is about my ancestors.

    An interesting class of Southerners were the French-speaking white Creoles of Louisiana. The general motivation for them enlisting after Louisiana seceded was "the American-born French were fighting for their freedom from oppression and the French-born residents were helping them; together,"Liberate" in the sense of 1789 was again ringing in the ears of the American Gaul".16 Therefore, the defense of liberty seems to be the primary motivation here, but definitely not necessarily the rule. For those French immigrants who enlisted to fight for the Confederacy, it must be stated that many were motivated by the "defense of the South, as holy a task as the American Revolution, and the enlistees vowed to bear hardships as great as Washington's before they would fail".17 The French were not alone with this show of patriotism, but other foreigners followed their own motivations. Those immigrants who fought for the Confederacy were an interesting and diverse group. They came from many nationalities, like the French, the Irish, the Germans, the Scottish, and the English being the most prominent. The two largest of these groups were the Germans and the Irish. http://www.wvculture.org/history/wvhs1404.html


    So a bit of a conformation that my heritage was not fighting for slavery, as so many here seem to insist, but for liberty. So that sense of the flag and the symbols of the south standing for liberty should be considered by those reading to have ample support so as to be seen as a legitimate and equally valid understanding of those symbols, as well as a just reason to preserve those images. Further I would argue that I should be joined in propagating that understanding of the southern symbols in response to those who seek to make them a purly racist one. It is the later that is the more ignorant view of history.
    ------

    --
    Back to the first issue, while many want to make it purely about slavery, there are other powerful forces at play. The quotes below are in relation to that, and I submit them for open discussion.
    --

    Some quotes of note, linked at the end.
    “They (the South) know that it is their import trade that draws from the peoples pockets sixty or seventy millions of dollars per annum, in the shape of duties, to be expended mainly in the North, and in the protection and encouragement of Northern interest. These are the reasons why these people do not wish the South to secede from the union”.
    New Orleans Daily Crescent-1861


    “The Southern Confederacy will not employ our ships or buy our goods. What is our shipping without it? Literally nothing… it is very clear that the South gains by this process and we lose. No…we must not let the South go”.
    Union Democrat Manchester, New Hampshire. 19 February, 1861


    “Had the cotton gin of Massachusetts inventor Eli Whitney not come on the scene in the late 1700’s, African slavery in this country was most likely doomed. The antislavery and emancipation feeling in the South was ascendant, but thwarted by profitable slave-trading and hungry cotton mills in New England which gave rise to more plantations in the South, and the perpetuation of slavery. And after years of treating the American South as an agricultural colony, New England set out in 1861 to strip it of political power.”
    Bernhard Thuersam- Director Cape Fear Historical Institute NC.



    “I tried all in my power to avert this war. I saw it coming, for twelve years I worked night and day to prevent it, but I could not. The North was mad and blind; it would not let us govern ourselves, and so the war came, and now it must go on unless you acknowledge our right to self government. We are not fighting for slavery. We are fighting for Independence.”
    President Jefferson Davis, CSA




    A little over 10 years later after the South attempted precisely that, Lincoln, when asked, “Why not let the South go in peace”? replied; “I can’t let them go. Who would pay for the government”? “And, what then will become of my tariff”?
    Abraham Lincoln to Virginia Compromise Delegation March 1861



    “It was necessary to put the South at a moral disadvantage by transforming the contest from a war waged against states fighting for their indepdence into a war waged against states fighting for the maintenance and extension of slavery…and the world, it might be hoped, would see it as a moral war, not a political; and the sympathy of nations would begin to run for the North, not for the South.”
    Woodrow Wilson, “A History of The American People”, page 231


    “The Union government liberates the enemy’s slaves as it would the enemy’s cattle, simply to weaken them in the conflict. The principle is not that a human being cannot justly own another, but that he cannot own him unless he is loyal to the United States.”


    London Spectator in reference to the Emancipation Proclamation“The Northern onslaught upon slavery was no more than a piece of specious humbug designed to conceal its desire for economic control of the Southern states.”
    Charles Dickens, 1862



    http://www.confederatecolonel.com/resources/quotes/

    Someone asked why we should honor General Lee
    “He possessed every virtue of other great commanders without their vices. He was a foe without hate; a friend without treachery; a victor without oppression, and a victim without murmuring. He was a public officer without vices; a private citizen without reproach; a Christian without hypocrisy and a man without guile. He was a Caesar without his ambition; Frederick without his tyranny; Napoleon without his selfishness, and Washington without his reward. He was obedient to authority as a servant, and loyal in authority as a true king. He was gentle as a woman in life; modest and pure as a virgin in thought; watchful as a Roman vital in duty; submissive to law as Socrates, and grand in battle as Achilles!”
    War-era Georgia Senator Ben Hill’s tribute to Robert E. Lee



    Quote Originally Posted by IBELSD
    a) Did the Union win the Civil War?
    b) Was the Confederate flag the banner of losing side in the Civil War?
    c) Was the Civil War based on the South's desire to continue the practice of slavery?
    A-YES
    B-YES
    C-
    Last edited by MindTrap028; July 2nd, 2015 at 08:14 AM.
    I apologize to anyone waiting on a response from me. I am experiencing a time warp, suddenly their are not enough hours in a day. As soon as I find a replacement part to my flux capacitor regulator, time should resume it's normal flow.

  22. #160
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    Re: Confederate Flag?

    @Mindtrap
    1) No one is "ignoring" your argument. I find your argument inadequate.
    For instance, despite your appeals that we listen to some quotes you have cherry-picked, let's look at historical documentation from the South:
    a) The South Carolina Declaration Of Independence
    http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp
    It makes six references to slavery whereby it complains that the North is hostile to the institution. Reading the document, it is quite clear that slavery was not some side-issue, but among the main issues.
    b) Georgia references slavery 26 times.
    c) Mississippi references slavery 3 times.
    d) South Carolina references slavery 6 times.
    e) Texas references slavery 3 times.
    f) Virginia references slavery 0 times. But, reading its DOI, it does not offer any reason at all.
    http://www.civilwar.org/education/hi...nofcauses.html

    Now, MT, you'd like to pretend that slavery was some minor, side-issue. Yet, among the six Southern states cited, slavery was mentioned 44times in the various Declarations of Independence. The Confederate flag is a symbol and I will not deny symbols may have more than one meaning. However, to deny that one of its most identifiable meanings is the support of slavery is simply implausible. As GP demonstrated, that symbol has held this meaning from its inception well into the 20th century. And there is nothing which supports that the symbol has somehow separated itself form its origins such that it is no longer a rallying cry for white supremacists.
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