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  1. #1
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    'Terrorist' profiling.

    Is it racist, sexist, or whatever else 'ist' to involve profiling when looking for terrorists, or indeed any other criminal groups; or is it just rational and sensible?

    Britain's highest ranking Muslim copper is against the idea of profiling when it comes to the current terror threat. I have my suspicions that he would deem profiling of any other group as 'halal' and sensible if it was people from other groups involved in the current bombing - oops, 'alleged' bombing plots. It seems to me that in the case of Islam we have to steer away from rationality. Yes, I empathise with the problems a issues faced by the 'good guys' in the Muslim community, but to ignore the fact that the current radicalised activists are largely young British Asian male etc. is just crass. If the police 'get it wrong', whichever way, they appear to be on a hiding to nothing. Here in the muslim/Asian community and the PC brigade there seems to be a greater willingness/readiness to condemn and criticise if a mistake is made, than to praise the authorities when they 'get it right'.

    To lump everyone as being 'suspects' is just going to cost a fortune, cause unnecessary disruption and hand the 'bad asses' a victory. To ignore the threat is to hand these crazies opportunities to kill and maim in the name of whatever on a massive scale.

    If the terror boys met my profile I would just accept the fact as one of those inconveniences of life and expect to get frisked and turned over. How do you guys feel?
    Last edited by FruitandNut; August 14th, 2006 at 10:53 PM.
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    Re: 'Terrorist' profiling.

    I don't see any problem with racial profiling. Perpetrators of violent crime are overwhelmingly male, so it would be sensible for police to lean toward that profile of the offender in their investigations. Similarly, terrorists are overwhelmingly of Middle Eastern or Pakistani origin. There is no place for political correctness at the expense of efficiency in police forces whose resources are already stretched to the limit.
    No free man shall be seized or imprisoned, or stripped of his rights or possessions, or outlawed or exiled, or deprived of his standing in any other way, nor will we proceed with force against him, or send others to do so, except by the lawful judgement of his equals or by the law of the land.
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  3. #3
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    Re: 'Terrorist' profiling.

    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut View Post
    Is it racist, sexist, or whatever else 'ist' to involve profiling when looking for terrorists, or indeed any other criminal groups; or is it just rational and sensible?
    Profiling occurs every day in law enforcement communities all over the world. I personally see nothing wrong with it. If it can help catch the bad guys I say go for it.
    Remember hearing stories about an 80 year old woman being singled out and removed from her wheel chair and searched just to meet some quota so to not offend some sensitive types out there. This is ridiculous. Now, I am not saying ignore everyone except ME males between the age of 15 and 30, but I believe they should all be scrutinized.


    ...to ignore the fact that the current radicalised activists are largely young British Asian male etc. is just crass.
    I heard a prominent Muslim once say, that while it is true that not all Muslims are terrorists, it does seem that nearly all terrorists are Muslim. It's a paraphrase, but that was the gist of it.

    Here in the muslim/Asian community and the PC brigade there seems to be a greater willingness/readiness to condemn and criticise if a mistake is made, than to praise the authorities when they 'get it right'.
    I am sure that sounds very familiar to many at ODN.

    To lump everyone as being 'suspects' is just going to cost a fortune, cause unnecessary disruption and hand the 'bad asses' a victory. To ignore the threat is to hand these crazies opportunities to kill and maim in the name of whatever on a massive scale.
    Ultimately, we need to learn to stand up and fight. The Western male has been beaten down and feminized for far too long. Taught not to be judgemental and to be fair minded. But there is a time when it is necessary to cast that all aside, stand firm and be prepared to identify and face the enemy. Until we do we may find more and more of us under the blade.

  4. #4
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    Re: 'Terrorist' profiling.

    Quote Originally Posted by unkcheetah View Post
    Profiling occurs every day in law enforcement communities all over the world. I personally see nothing wrong with it. If it can help catch the bad guys I say go for it.
    Remember hearing stories about an 80 year old woman being singled out and removed from her wheel chair and searched just to meet some quota so to not offend some sensitive types out there. This is ridiculous. Now, I am not saying ignore everyone except ME males between the age of 15 and 30, but I believe they should all be scrutinized.
    .
    See, the problem with racial profiling from a geopolitical standpoint is muslims already feel persecuted for there religion. If we allow a minority of Yahoos to make us become so afraid of all muslims we start actually start picking on them for being Muslim, we only validate there point. Meaning even MORE muslims join thre cause.
    The road racial profiling leads us down is one where we REALLY do have 1 billion people seething and ready to kill us.

    Quote Originally Posted by unkcheetah View Post
    I heard a prominent Muslim once say, that while it is true that not all Muslims are terrorists, it does seem that nearly all terrorists are Muslim. It's a paraphrase, but that was the gist of it.
    .
    Oklahoma city bombing? The mail bomber? From a law enforcerment standpoint, racial profiling is dangerous because it leads us to believe certian things. Arabs are evil, so that's what we'll be expecting. The obvious ones, with the turbans, shiks, and robes, we are looking for. Meanwhile, the clean-cut, well-spoken man with the tanned complexion gets through as we're holding Mohammad Omiri with the diamond-studded turbin for more rigiourus questioning, and the young man boards United 93

    It's dangerous to let yourself get locked into having expectations about criminality. Because when you do, the guy you thought was completely innocent bites you on the ass.

    Quote Originally Posted by unkcheetah View Post
    I am sure that sounds very familiar to many at ODN.
    .
    The WANT us to be bigoted, prejudice and to persecute muslims. That way, they can get even MORE support for there cause.

    Quote Originally Posted by unkcheetah View Post
    Ultimately, we need to learn to stand up and fight. The Western male has been beaten down and feminized for far too long.
    .
    Be proud of who you are

    Quote Originally Posted by unkcheetah View Post
    Taught not to be judgemental and to be fair minded. But there is a time when it is necessary to cast that all aside, stand firm and be prepared to identify and face the enemy. Until we do we may find more and more of us under the blade.
    What blade? There are 6 billion people on this planet. Your blank comdemnations indicate a billion of them. And if a billion people where our enemy, I seriously doubt the casualties would number a few thousand.

  5. #5
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    Re: 'Terrorist' profiling.

    Profiling could work against Americans too. We can be harrassed just as easily at other foreign points of entry. There is a civil way to profile for security reasons without being unnecessarily rude or bigoted - it's called using tact.
    While laughing at others stupidity, you may want to contemplate your own comedic talents. (link)
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    Re: 'Terrorist' profiling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop View Post
    Profiling could work against Americans too. We can be harrassed just as easily at other foreign points of entry. There is a civil way to profile for security reasons without being unnecessarily rude or bigoted - it's called using tact.
    How do you walk up to the one Arab man in an airport of hundreds, and NOT sound like a jerk when you ask to examine his bag?

  7. #7
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    Re: 'Terrorist' profiling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turtleflipper View Post
    How do you walk up to the one Arab man in an airport of hundreds, and NOT sound like a jerk when you ask to examine his bag?
    Terrible example. Try having your facts before the lone Arab even gets to the airport.
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    Re: 'Terrorist' profiling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop View Post
    Terrible example. Try having your facts before the lone Arab even gets to the airport.
    What facts? It's profiling. That's what it does. It's walking up to someone because of there sex/religion/race and poking through there bag.

    By it's very nature, if you have a reason to believe this particular guy is going to commit a crime, it's not profiling.

  9. #9
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    Re: 'Terrorist' profiling.

    A rational way of profiling exists: "Thankfully, other choices lie along the spectrum between these two extremes. A truly effective system of terrorist profiling would not look solely at a person's race in determining whether extra scrutiny is justified. Rather, a range of factors--including gender, age, dress, and behavior--can be used to identify the most likely terrorists. Surely there can be no argument against considering these non-racial factors."
    "Spare No Resource"
    Terrorist profiling is the most efficient, and effective, method of anti-terror policing.
    While laughing at others stupidity, you may want to contemplate your own comedic talents. (link)
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  10. #10
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    Re: 'Terrorist' profiling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop View Post
    A rational way of profiling exists: "Thankfully, other choices lie along the spectrum between these two extremes. A truly effective system of terrorist profiling would not look solely at a person's race in determining whether extra scrutiny is justified. Rather, a range of factors--including gender, age, dress, and behavior--can be used to identify the most likely terrorists. Surely there can be no argument against considering these non-racial factors."
    "Spare No Resource"
    Terrorist profiling is the most efficient, and effective, method of anti-terror policing.
    Just jumping in to point out that any REAL terrorists who have an actual plan to do great harm will avoid these traits to the extent that they can so as to avoid detection by those means.
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    Re: 'Terrorist' profiling.

    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Just jumping in to point out that any REAL terrorists who have an actual plan to do great harm will avoid these traits to the extent that they can so as to avoid detection by those means.
    A valid point indeed. I see the where the jump is being made on the statistics, because to date, most acts of extreme terrorism have been perpetrated by people of Middle Eastern decent. However notice the word most which implies some have not. Some of these terrorist groups have demonstrated that they are truly quite intelligent. I would think it unwise to allocate an inordinate amount of airport screeners to just this sector of the population because that creates gaps allowing for different types of security exploitations. The more logical approach would be to increase the amount of security and apply it to everyone. This of course creates inconvenience and longer delay times in airports. I don't have a problem waiting a little longer to fly to Vegas, if it means I will get there in one piece. As far as anyone feeling offended by being checked, whether they be White, Black, Middle Eastern...........etc.......Who cares? If some take offense but the net effect is saving lives, my choice is saving lives.
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  12. #12
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    Re: 'Terrorist' profiling.

    I absolutely support profiling. It is not the case that everyone who is non-Arab looking or non-Muslim gets a free pass...it is the case that everyone who is Arab or Muslim, gets a 2nd look.

    This is logical, and is most efficient. Spend the most time on those who are the most suspect. Since it is the case that about 90% (guesstimating of course) of all terrorists are Muslim, it makes sense that a bit more time and energy is spent on Muslims, particular Arabs.

    Pointing out that there are exceptions is fallacious reasoning.

    Also, in times such as these, the feelings of those who fit the profile of those who seek to murder others, is irrelevant. That's a pc movement that I find absurd, and of course, cannot and will not subscribe to. Enough with the touch-feely, sensitive, sissification of America. It is what gets us killed, it is what disallows us to do the job correctly and efficiently. When lives are at stake, the ante has been raised. Being more efficient and more accurate is, contrary to the pc crowd's view...important.

    When an 80 yr old white woman in a wheelchair is said to be as much of a terrorist threat as a healthy 26 yr old Muslim from Syria, there is a lack of brain power being exercised IMO.

    It's not saying that she cannot possibly be a threat, it is saying that he is more likely to be a threat and thus, ought to be given a closer look to ensure that he is not.

    The fact is, this guy resembles the overwhelmingly, vast majority of those who commit such acts of terrorism which she does not.

    In order for the "equal treatment argument" to work...one must show how the 80yr old invalid is an identical threat....and equal threat.

    IMO, it can't be done logically. We'll see if any pc-card carrying members step up to the challenge.

    The below text has been automerged with this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Just jumping in to point out that any REAL terrorists who have an actual plan to do great harm will avoid these traits to the extent that they can so as to avoid detection by those means.
    I agree that those who fit the profile will combat profiling...but not by using white boys, gramma's, or little Sally the girlscout selling cookies. Instead, they will appeal to political correctness. They understand the weakness of the West. They understand that there are many who lack stamina and resolve. They understand that there are many who believe it is necessary to be sensitve instead of reasonable. They will use this to their advantage.

    Osama for example, has even recognized this weakness of resolve and said that it will be exploited. Those in the pc corner, are buying Osama's snake-oil, playing right into the hands of those who share Osama's understandings of the West. In this respect, Osama is quite brilliant.

    I'll dig up the quote and context...if someone finds it before me, please link it. Also, he isn't the only one who has made such statements.
    Last edited by Apokalupsis; August 15th, 2006 at 12:08 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  13. #13
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    Re: 'Terrorist' profiling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Also, in times such as these, the feelings of those who fit the profile of those who seek to murder others, is irrelevant. That's a pc movement that I find absurd, and of course, cannot and will not subscribe to. Enough with the touch-feely, sensitive, sissification of America. It is what gets us killed, it is what disallows us to do the job correctly and efficiently. When lives are at stake, the ante has been raised. Being more efficient and more accurate is, contrary to the pc crowd's view...important.

    When an 80 yr old white woman in a wheelchair is said to be as much of a terrorist threat as a healthy 26 yr old Muslim from Syria, there is a lack of brain power being exercised IMO.

    It's not saying that she cannot possibly be a threat, it is saying that he is more likely to be a threat and thus, ought to be given a closer look to ensure that he is not.

    The fact is, this guy resembles the overwhelmingly, vast majority of those who commit such acts of terrorism which she does not.

    In order for the "equal treatment argument" to work...one must show how the 80yr old invalid is an identical threat....and equal threat.

    IMO, it can't be done logically. We'll see if any pc-card carrying members step up to the challenge.

    The below text has been automerged with this post.
    http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english...2762862324.jpg

    Look at that picture. See that guy in the nice jacket, going through the metal detector? 9/11 hijacker*. See how Muslim he looks? With his turbin, his robes, his quran in tow behind him? In fact, the only thing that would indicate he's Arab is his tanned complexion. Now, if we would have said look for Muslims, do you really think the airport would be more inclined to study THIS guy more closely?

    http://www.solcomhouse.com/portlattat2.jpg

    'Course not, he dosen't even LOOK Muslim. Profiling isn't used because it's so easy to get around. They looking for Muslims? Some lighting makeup, a nice suit, and your scot free. Yet we've just increased the workload of our security buy a signfigant margin.


    Further, it's not PC. Al-Queda and the like NEED us to start persecuting muslims. So they can gain followers. Your validing there claims and giving them support. Thus creating what you are trying to prevent. More terrorism.

    They are itty-bitty now, but if you keep acting like it's us vs. muslims, one day it may very well be that


    P.S.- You never did respond to a similiar vain of debate here http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...496#post176496



    *sorry for the seeming sensationalism brought about by 9/11 references, but I thought it was apt

  14. #14
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    Re: 'Terrorist' profiling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turtleflipper View Post
    http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english...2762862324.jpg

    Look at that picture. See that guy in the nice jacket, going through the metal detector? 9/11 hijacker*. See how Muslim he looks? With his turbin, his robes, his quran in tow behind him? In fact, the only thing that would indicate he's Arab is his tanned complexion. Now, if we would have said look for Muslims, do you really think the airport would be more inclined to study THIS guy more closely?

    http://www.solcomhouse.com/portlattat2.jpg

    'Course not, he dosen't even LOOK Muslim. Profiling isn't used because it's so easy to get around. They looking for Muslims? Some lighting makeup, a nice suit, and your scot free. Yet we've just increased the workload of our security buy a signfigant margin.
    ...how can you tell he isn't Arab looking from 1 photo that doesn't show his face and the other which is perhaps one of the poorest quality available aside from a still shot from a b&w 7-11 camera?

    Further, it's not PC. Al-Queda and the like NEED us to start persecuting muslims. So they can gain followers. Your validing there claims and giving them support. Thus creating what you are trying to prevent. More terrorism.
    So they had trouble gaining followers pre-911? I doubt it, thus, not a valid objection. Furthermore, being more cautious =/= persecution.

    They are itty-bitty now, but if you keep acting like it's us vs. muslims, one day it may very well be that
    It is us vs radical Islam. It's been that way for a while now. There is no "war on terror"...that's absurd...it's like saying there could be a "war on nuclear subs". Terrorism is a method of warfare. You cannot combat methods of warfare, you combat enemies who use any methods of warfare against you. Those employing this method, are radical Muslims.

    P.S.- You never did respond to a similiar vain of debate here http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...496#post176496
    I know, I'll get to it. The problem is coming up with the patience to discuss what I consider to be self-evident. I realize that not all feel it is, and that is why there are different worldviews.

    But to me, it's like debating against someone who believes that having sex which children is a moral act (not comparing you to child molestors in anyway)...it should be self-evident, it should be something that doesn't need to be discussed. So...how do you go from the variety of the nuances that may matter, to instead debating the very fabric of what ought to be self-evident? The first step IMO, is having the patience to do so. When I gather up enough patience and resolve to do so, I shall.
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    Re: 'Terrorist' profiling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turtleflipper View Post

    Look at that picture. See that guy in the nice jacket, going through the metal detector? 9/11 hijacker*. See how Muslim he looks? With his turbin, his robes, his quran in tow behind him? In fact, the only thing that would indicate he's Arab is his tanned complexion. Now, if we would have said look for Muslims, do you really think the airport would be more inclined to study THIS guy more closely?

    ...he dosen't even LOOK Muslim. Profiling isn't used because it's so easy to get around. They looking for Muslims? Some lighting makeup, a nice suit, and your scot free. Yet we've just increased the workload of our security buy a signfigant margin.
    The profiling does not consist only of race as a deciding factor in whether an individual should be under greater scrutiny. There are other factors as well.

    "The passenger-profiling technique involves selecting people who are behaving suspiciously, have an unusual travel pattern or, most controversially, have a certain ethnic or religious background.

    The system would be much more sophisticated than simply picking out young men of Asian appearance.

    Officials at the Department for Transport (DfT) have discussed the practicalities of introducing such a system with airport operators, including BAA. They believe that it would be more effective at identifying potential terrorists than the existing random searches.

    ...that profiling should focus on ruling out people who obviously posed no risk rather than picking out Asian or Arabs."

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...313135,00.html


    Further, it's not PC. Al-Queda and the like NEED us to start persecuting muslims. So they can gain followers. Your validing there claims and giving them support. Thus creating what you are trying to prevent. More terrorism.
    Persecution of Mislims? How does profiling equate with persecution? Are they made to wear little yellow stars to identify their ethnicity? Are they being kidnapped and beheaded because of their ethnicity? Are the bodies of their soldiers being deficated on because of their heritage? Are they being forced to work in slave labor camps because of their heritage?
    No? They are just being asked to be inconvenienced so as to create a safer environment for others.


    Here is some racial profiling for you.

    Dirty Kuffars not allowed!

    Non-Muslims are not permitted to enter Mecca, according to the Saudi embassy in London. Road blocks are stationed along roads leading to the city.

    Forbidden cities have always exercised a fascination over a certain type of mind both in ancient and in modern times, and for both the cities which are forbidden in our day, namely, Lhassa and Mecca, there is a considerable list of works of travellers who in one disguise or another have penetrated to their sanctuaries, though, as Dr. Margoliouth somewhere remarks, the number of those who have been and survived to tell the tale is but a small percentage of those who have tried and perished in the attempt. Reliable authorities have told us in regard to Mecca, that hardly a pilgrimage season passes without somebody being done to death on the suspicion of being a Christian in disguise.

    http://www.freemuslims.org/news/arti...p?article=1399
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca

    Imagine the outrage if, say, New York, decided to close the doors to all but one religion/ethnicity.

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    Re: 'Terrorist' profiling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    ...how can you tell he isn't Arab looking from 1 photo that doesn't show his face and the other which is perhaps one of the poorest quality available aside from a still shot from a b&w 7-11 camera?
    He could be arab looking, but the only thing you can go by is skin-complexion, which is easy-changed and hard to finger if he's hispanic/muslim what have you

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    So they had trouble gaining followers pre-911? I doubt it, thus, not a valid objection. Furthermore, being more cautious =/= persecution.
    Considering we haven't had any terrorist attacks in the US for five years (well, this recent one sort of counts, so let's say it was a 5 year hiatus), I'd say they aren't exactly numbering in the legions

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    It is us vs radical Islam. It's been that way for a while now. There is no "war on terror"...that's absurd...it's like saying there could be a "war on nuclear subs". Terrorism is a method of warfare. You cannot combat methods of warfare, you combat enemies who use any methods of warfare against you. Those employing this method, are radical Muslims.
    I completely agree. Now if only Muslims in general would understand it's not them we're after. We merely want a massively small minority of them, who are a threat to both us and there, liberty and safety. How to accomplish this.....?


    I KNOW! Obligitory persecution based on race of ALL arab-looking people.

    That way, we ensure we have the Muslim community-at-large as allies, who will get the terrorists and radicals where we can't go without starting a war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    I know, I'll get to it. The problem is coming up with the patience to discuss what I consider to be self-evident. I realize that not all feel it is, and that is why there are different worldviews.
    Dude, no problem. I was thinking about retracting that. Thought it was rather mean considering you run the entirety of the thing it's written on and are probably busy

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    But to me, it's like debating against someone who believes that having sex which children is a moral act (not comparing you to child molestors in anyway)...it should be self-evident, it should be something that doesn't need to be discussed. So...how do you go from the variety of the nuances that may matter, to instead debating the very fabric of what ought to be self-evident? The first step IMO, is having the patience to do so. When I gather up enough patience and resolve to do so, I shall.

    Self-evident is a very relative term

    Anyway, no rush

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    Re: 'Terrorist' profiling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turtleflipper View Post
    He could be arab looking, but the only thing you can go by is skin-complexion, which is easy-changed and hard to finger if he's hispanic/muslim what have you
    ...how is skin complexion easily changed? When has profiling only been about skin complexion?

    Considering we haven't had any terrorist attacks in the US for five years (well, this recent one sort of counts, so let's say it was a 5 year hiatus), I'd say they aren't exactly numbering in the legions
    You aren't following here. You said that by being cautious of Muslims, it would mean more Muslims following Osama. Osama had a pretty big rank and file pre-911. This means, according to your logic, that we were being cautious of Muslims. History disagrees with you, thus, your argument is false.

    Furthermore, you have not shown that being cautious here in the U.S., will result in recruitment in the Middle East.

    Lastly, we have had thwarted attempts since 911 (I'm gathering them for a post). London, has thwarted 10. Spain wasn't doing anything, yet it was still attacked. Was Spain profiling? Since when is compliance with the enemy who wants you destroyed, a wise course of action to take? When has this worked?

    I completely agree. Now if only Muslims in general would understand it's not them we're after. We merely want a massively small minority of them, who are a threat to both us and there, liberty and safety. How to accomplish this.....?
    What makes you think that they don't already understand this considering that many of them agree with us already and are assisting us, What makes you think that they will turn to radical muslims (which is the actual threat)? Why is it more important to be sensitive to all Muslims by falsely claiming that an 80 yr old woman is just as deadly as a 25 yr old radical Muslim?


    I KNOW! Obligitory persecution based on race of ALL arab-looking people.
    Why would you want to do that? That's certainly going much further than anyone who supports profiling. First you argue that profiling is too much, now you argue that it is not enough. This puts profiling as a moderate position and your own, as a radical position. Doesn't seem too reasonable.

    /end sarcastic yet logical retort

    That way, we ensure we have the Muslim community-at-large as allies, who will get the terrorists and radicals where we can't go without starting a war.
    Yes, because as we all know, they are widely successfual at doing this already to the point that profiling isn't necessary.

    Self-evident is a very relative term
    How do you know?
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
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    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  18. #18
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    Re: 'Terrorist' profiling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post

    ...how is skin complexion easily changed? When has profiling only been about skin complexion?
    What else can you profile with? (legitmate question)

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    You aren't following here. You said that by being cautious of Muslims, it would mean more Muslims following Osama. Osama had a pretty big rank and file pre-911. This means, according to your logic, that we were being cautious of Muslims. History disagrees with you, thus, your argument is false.

    Furthermore, you have not shown that being cautious here in the U.S., will result in recruitment in the Middle East.

    Lastly, we have had thwarted attempts since 911 (I'm gathering them for a post). London, has thwarted 10. Spain wasn't doing anything, yet it was still attacked. Was Spain profiling? Since when is compliance with the enemy who wants you destroyed, a wise course of action to take? When has this worked?
    You thwarted them without profiling, yet now your arguing for it's instigation?

    As for profiling, it's a minor part of the larger claim the west is persecuting muslims. And as we haven't started profiling yet, I don't see how you can make the claim it is seriously increasing or decreasing the perception we are persecuting muslims, which IS a major reason for anti-west sentiment


    BTW- Exactly wht I said, small groups of idiots

    Mayor Ken Livingstone told the BBC that the terror threat is “fairly disorganised” and involves small groups of disaffected people.

    He said London was not the focus of a “great organised international Conspiracy with orders flowing down the chain”.


    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    What makes you think that they don't already understand this considering that many of them agree with us already and are assisting us, What makes you think that they will turn to radical muslims (which is the actual threat)? Why is it more important to be sensitive to all Muslims by falsely claiming that an 80 yr old woman is just as deadly as a 25 yr old radical Muslim?
    That's stupid, the 80-year-old and the whole quota thing. And although that makes sense, I don't think legalizing persecution is worth the anger it will generate


    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Why would you want to do that? That's certainly going much further than anyone who supports profiling. First you argue that profiling is too much, now you argue that it is not enough. This puts profiling as a moderate position and your own, as a radical position. Doesn't seem too reasonable.

    /end sarcastic yet logical retort
    Clearly we have misunderstanding about what profiling is

    /end pants

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Yes, because as we all know, they are widely successfual at doing this already to the point that profiling isn't necessary.
    Again, we don't profile, so it's hard to say

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    How do you know?
    When I was little I though the poistions of the 9 planets was a universally known fact. I thought they were joking when they said we were going to be tested on it.
    To me that was like testing someone on what the blue thing with clouds is called. I thought is was impossibly silly

    The below text has been automerged with this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by unkcheetah View Post
    The profiling does not consist only of race as a deciding factor in whether an individual should be under greater scrutiny. There are other factors as well.

    "The passenger-profiling technique involves selecting people who are behaving suspiciously, have an unusual travel pattern or, most controversially, have a certain ethnic or religious background.

    The system would be much more sophisticated than simply picking out young men of Asian appearance.

    Officials at the Department for Transport (DfT) have discussed the practicalities of introducing such a system with airport operators, including BAA. They believe that it would be more effective at identifying potential terrorists than the existing random searches.

    ...that profiling should focus on ruling out people who obviously posed no risk rather than picking out Asian or Arabs."

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...313135,00.html
    I've got no problem with this.


    Quote Originally Posted by unkcheetah View Post
    Persecution of Mislims? How does profiling equate with persecution? Are they made to wear little yellow stars to identify their ethnicity? Are they being kidnapped and beheaded because of their ethnicity? Are the bodies of their soldiers being deficated on because of their heritage? Are they being forced to work in slave labor camps because of their heritage?
    No? They are just being asked to be inconvenienced so as to create a safer environment for others.
    Those are extremes of persecution, and although minor, as I understood it, picking on someone because of there race is a mild form of persecution.

    Evidently what I thought profiling was is wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by unkcheetah View Post
    Here is some racial profiling for you.

    Dirty Kuffars not allowed!

    Non-Muslims are not permitted to enter Mecca, according to the Saudi embassy in London. Road blocks are stationed along roads leading to the city.

    Forbidden cities have always exercised a fascination over a certain type of mind both in ancient and in modern times, and for both the cities which are forbidden in our day, namely, Lhassa and Mecca, there is a considerable list of works of travellers who in one disguise or another have penetrated to their sanctuaries, though, as Dr. Margoliouth somewhere remarks, the number of those who have been and survived to tell the tale is but a small percentage of those who have tried and perished in the attempt. Reliable authorities have told us in regard to Mecca, that hardly a pilgrimage season passes without somebody being done to death on the suspicion of being a Christian in disguise.

    http://www.freemuslims.org/news/arti...p?article=1399
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca

    Imagine the outrage if, say, New York, decided to close the doors to all but one religion/ethnicity.
    No one said the muslim world isn't without hypocrisisy in it's talk of the west
    Last edited by Turtleflipper; August 15th, 2006 at 04:59 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Re: 'Terrorist' profiling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turtleflipper View Post

    What else can you profile with? (legitmate question)

    Clearly we have misunderstanding about what profiling is

    Again, we don't profile, so it's hard to say

    Evidently what I thought profiling was is wrong

    Profiling:
    Recording a person's behavior and analyzing psychological characteristics in order to predict or assess their ability in a certain sphere or to identify a particular group of people


    Those are extremes of persecution, and although minor, as I understood it, picking on someone because of there race is a mild form of persecution.
    Persecution:
    1 : to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief
    2 : to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities)

  20. #20
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    Re: 'Terrorist' profiling.

    It's a tough dilemma, Fruity; do European and American airports interview EVERY PASSENGER as the Israelis do, or "profile" the young swarthy Middle Eastern types and risk the "mistakes" that lead to ugly incidents with minority groups. Al Qaeda wins either way. Making every passenger a suspect, as the Israelis do, is not cost effective in large capitalist societies. We simply won't tolerate the inconvenience and higher ticket prices. But "profiling" Muslims of the Middle Eastern persuasion feeds the Al Qaeda claim that a new crusades is afoot between the Christian West and Muslim Middle East. Al Qaeda gets a boost by the reactionaries in the West that also see a great Western/Muslim "clash of civilizations" and would welcome further differentiating Muslims from the rest of our society.

    As CC said, Al Qaeda can adjust its tactics to either strategy. Richard Reed, the convicted shoe-bomber, did not have Muslim name, nor did he wear a turban and flowing white robe, nor did he have a heavy Middle East accent. Reed was caught because of his suspicious behavior on board the plane. Therein lies the beauty--and expense--of the Israeli interview system. Rather than use "racial profiles," they look at BEHAVIOR as the telling give away. The Israelis also know that non-Middle Eastern types can be duped into carrying on explosives or other dangerous materials through many ruses. We see this in drug smuggling all the time. The world's jails are filled with unsuspecting British backpackers.

    But, as you say, money is a big factor in the capitalist west. We don't want to be inconvenienced and would rather target a minority group. We'll sleep better at night and stock prices will remain stable. After all, who wants to endure Israeli police state tactics, or Israel's security budget?

    I guess the Middle Eastern dudes will lose out; it does appear we in the rich capitalist nations have no alternative. Call it "collateral damage" of the war on terror. I don't think Osama cares what we call it, however.

 

 
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