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  1. #1
    Dennison
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    Post Name anything that can be considered perfect

    Can you name anything that can be considered perfect?

    This has been going around my mind for quite some time now. Does true perfection exist? If so, where?

    To clarify things, I am only using the word "perfect" because I do not know of any more appropriate word. So, let me define what I am referring to by the word "perfect". Perfect refers to somthing that can hold itself by itself, something that is constant and will never degrade or die. It has to be something that exists simply because it is part of existing/existence itself, something that cannot not exist. Also, this has to be provable through logic.

    So automatically, every single matter in the universe do not qualify, since they are bound by the laws of entropy and therefore will at one point in time, cease to exist. Maybe someone else out here can argue otherwise?

    So, we move on to abstract things. Life cannot be perfect because there is death which is absence of life. Heat is not perfect because it needs to be sustained, and cold cannot be perfect because it is merely the absence of heat ... therefore absolute absence of heat cannot exist because it is the inexistence of heat. So, this brings me to nothingness - nothing is not perfect because it is nothing. For something to be considered perfect, it has to be something. Maybe someone else can say otherwise?

    In a sense, this perfection has to be close to the concept of God, but this is not a theological debate so please let's not go into that.

    So, after some thinking I have come up with the conclusion that the only thing perfect in this universe is time. Time cannot exist in nothingness. Time will have to exist for the sake of existence. Time is eternal. (so is time = God? Maybe we can discuss this in another debate) Do you agree or disagree? If not, why?

    So having said all of these, can you name anything that can be considered perfect? Love maybe (why?)

    Please do not say perfection is perfect because I am looking for an application, not a definition of the word.

    Discuss.

  2. #2
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    Re: Name anything that can be considered perfect

    Nothing is perfect or things would never change for the better. The wording in your op leaves room for doubt because "consideration" of anything is easy - proof is another story.

    Wikipedia has a good section on this subject:

    Paradoxes of perfection
    The parallel existence of two concepts of perfection, one strict ("perfection," as such) and the other loose ("excellence"), has given rise — perhaps since antiquity but certainly since the Renaissance — to a singular paradox: that the greatest perfection is imperfection. This was formulated by Lucilio Vanini (ca. 1585 – 1619), who had a precursor in the 16th-century writer Joseph Juste Scaliger, and they in turn referred to the ancient philosopher Empedocles. Their argument, as given by the first two, was that if the world were perfect, it could not improve and so would lack "true perfection," which depends on progress. To Aristotle, "perfect" meant "complete" ("nothing to add or subtract"). To Empedocles, according to Vanini, perfection depends on incompleteness ("perfectio propter imperfectionem"), since the latter possesses a potential for development and for complementing with new characteristics ("perfectio complementii"). This view relates to the baroque esthetic of Vanini and Marin Mersenne: the perfection of an art work consists in its forcing the recipient to be active — to complement the art work by an effort of mind and imagination.

    The paradox of perfection — that imperfection is perfect — applies not only to human affairs, but to technology. Thus, irregularity in semiconductor crystals (an imperfection, in the form of contaminants) is requisite for the production of semiconductors. The solution to the apparent paradox lies in a distinction between two concepts of "perfection": that of regularity, and that of utility. Imperfection is perfect in technology, in the sense that irregularity is useful.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfection

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  3. #3
    Dennison
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    Re: Name anything that can be considered perfect

    Thanks for the welcome, Snoop.

    Anyway, good read, it satisfies me a bit, but I don't want an argument over the concept of "perfection" because like I stated in paragraph #3, I wasn't even sure if "perfect" was the correct term, so I had to define it. Going by my definition, imperfection cannot be perfect beacuse it does not exist. Imperfection is nothing, and nothing cannot be something therefore it cannot be perfect in my definition. I do not want to debate whether "nothing" is perfect or "nothing" is something. For it to qualify by my definition, it must be "something".

  4. #4
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    Re: Name anything that can be considered perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennison View Post
    Can you name anything that can be considered perfect?

    This has been going around my mind for quite some time now. Does true perfection exist? If so, where?

    To clarify things, I am only using the word "perfect" because I do not know of any more appropriate word. So, let me define what I am referring to by the word "perfect". Perfect refers to somthing that can hold itself by itself, something that is constant and will never degrade or die. It has to be something that exists simply because it is part of existing/existence itself, something that cannot not exist. Also, this has to be provable through logic.

    So automatically, every single matter in the universe do not qualify, since they are bound by the laws of entropy and therefore will at one point in time, cease to exist. Maybe someone else out here can argue otherwise?

    So, we move on to abstract things. Life cannot be perfect because there is death which is absence of life. Heat is not perfect because it needs to be sustained, and cold cannot be perfect because it is merely the absence of heat ... therefore absolute absence of heat cannot exist because it is the inexistence of heat. So, this brings me to nothingness - nothing is not perfect because it is nothing. For something to be considered perfect, it has to be something. Maybe someone else can say otherwise?

    In a sense, this perfection has to be close to the concept of God, but this is not a theological debate so please let's not go into that.

    So, after some thinking I have come up with the conclusion that the only thing perfect in this universe is time. Time cannot exist in nothingness. Time will have to exist for the sake of existence. Time is eternal. (so is time = God? Maybe we can discuss this in another debate) Do you agree or disagree? If not, why?

    So having said all of these, can you name anything that can be considered perfect? Love maybe (why?)

    Please do not say perfection is perfect because I am looking for an application, not a definition of the word.

    Discuss.
    Light.

  5. #5
    Dennison
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    Re: Name anything that can be considered perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldPhoenix View Post
    Light.
    Good try GoldPhoenix! that's the kind of thing I'm looking for. Thought of that before, but light needs a source

  6. #6
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    Re: Name anything that can be considered perfect

    Yes, but everything has a source, that doesn't disqualify it from perfect.

  7. #7
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    Re: Name anything that can be considered perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldPhoenix View Post
    Yes, but everything has a source, that doesn't disqualify it from perfect.
    As Dennison said, use his definition.

    I would go out on a limb and say energy. If my physics hasn't failed me, the law of the conservation of energy states that energy cannot be created or destroyed. Light is a form of energy; so is heat. While light and heat can diminish, it is only because they have been converted to another form of energy.

    Hence energy, in itself, should fulfill your definition of "perfection" - self-sustaining, constant, and eternal. I'm not sure that energy will go away even after the Universe ends.
    Trendem

  8. #8
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    Re: Name anything that can be considered perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennison
    To clarify things, I am only using the word "perfect" because I do not know of any more appropriate word. So, let me define what I am referring to by the word "perfect". Perfect refers to somthing that can hold itself by itself, something that is constant and will never degrade or die. It has to be something that exists simply because it is part of existing/existence itself, something that cannot not exist. Also, this has to be provable through logic.
    Would "timeless" perhaps be a better word?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennison
    So, we move on to abstract things.
    Abstractions cannot be perfect, as they require an intelligent mind to comprehend them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennison
    So, after some thinking I have come up with the conclusion that the only thing perfect in this universe is time. Time cannot exist in nothingness. Time will have to exist for the sake of existence. Time is eternal. (so is time = God? Maybe we can discuss this in another debate) Do you agree or disagree? If not, why?
    '
    Au contraire. Time does not exist. Time is merely the word we use so that we can describe and measure the changing state of the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennison
    So having said all of these, can you name anything that can be considered perfect?
    Energy. Conservation of energy dictates that the amount of energy in the universe remain constant.

    Welcome to ODN, by the way.
    Freedom is you choosing for yourself. Law is the government choosing for you. The two are opposites.

    Pray - To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce
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  9. #9
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    Re: Name anything that can be considered perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennison View Post
    So, after some thinking I have come up with the conclusion that the only thing perfect in this universe is time. Time cannot exist in nothingness. Time will have to exist for the sake of existence. Time is eternal. (so is time = God? Maybe we can discuss this in another debate) Do you agree or disagree? If not, why?
    Einstein showed that time and space are inseparable. You agree that matter deteriorates from entropy. Since all matter and energy has not entropied to a neutral, unusable state, matter had a beginning. Therefore, time had a beginning. All things which have a beginning were created. Thus, time was created. Demonstrating that time cannot be God.

  10. #10
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    Re: Name anything that can be considered perfect

    Well, technically matter and energy are not conserved.

    On a nuclear/quantum level, anti-matter and matter can be converted into photons (energy) and back again.

  11. #11
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    Re: Name anything that can be considered perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by Gold Phoenix
    Well, technically matter and energy are not conserved.

    On a nuclear/quantum level, anti-matter and matter can be converted into photons (energy) and back again.
    You will find that even here that they are indeed conserved. Matter and energy are but two faces of the same coin, they are in fact one. Conversion of energy into matter or vice versus therefore obeys the laws of thermodynamics.

    Au contraire. Time does not exist. Time is merely the word we use so that we can describe and measure the changing state of the universe.
    If time does not exist then General Relativity is false. For what we get from Einstein is that time exists as an actual dimension of the universe. That is why the speed of light is the fastest speed possible in this universe and why a photon does not expierence time.

    So where does this leave us. It leaves us with you making a claim that is contrary to the notion of time given to us by Relativity and one that is contradictory to the evidence.

    The below text has been automerged with this post.

    In answer to the original question:

    God
    Last edited by chadn737; August 27th, 2006 at 02:03 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

  12. #12
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    Re: Name anything that can be considered perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737
    If time does not exist then General Relativity is false. For what we get from Einstein is that time exists as an actual dimension of the universe. That is why the speed of light is the fastest speed possible in this universe and why a photon does not expierence time.

    So where does this leave us. It leaves us with you making a claim that is contrary to the notion of time given to us by Relativity and one that is contradictory to the evidence.
    Consider the claim withdrawn.
    Freedom is you choosing for yourself. Law is the government choosing for you. The two are opposites.

    Pray - To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce
    Faith - Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge about things without parallel - Ambrose Bierce

  13. #13
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    Re: Name anything that can be considered perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737 View Post
    You will find that even here that they are indeed conserved. Matter and energy are but two faces of the same coin, they are in fact one. Conversion of energy into matter or vice versus therefore obeys the laws of thermodynamics.
    Indeed, but they still are not "perfect" by my working understanding of whathisname's definition of "perfect".

    I think they aren't supposed to change.

  14. #14
    Dennison
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    Re: Name anything that can be considered perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldPhoenix View Post
    Yes, but everything has a source, that doesn't disqualify it from perfect.
    I agree, but I am using the term "perfect" loosely. See paragraph #3 of my original post. In a sense, the thing has to be complete by itself, has to be able to stand by itself and it has to exist by itself.

    So, light does not exist by itself as it needs a source.

    Also, if you say everything has a source, then what is the source of time?

    The below text has been automerged with this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trendem View Post
    As Dennison said, use his definition.

    I would go out on a limb and say energy. If my physics hasn't failed me, the law of the conservation of energy states that energy cannot be created or destroyed. Light is a form of energy; so is heat. While light and heat can diminish, it is only because they have been converted to another form of energy.

    Hence energy, in itself, should fulfill your definition of "perfection" - self-sustaining, constant, and eternal. I'm not sure that energy will go away even after the Universe ends.
    Hmm, interesting this gives me something to think about. Indeed, energy is self-evident, self-existing, and self-sustaining. And energy has to exist. Which brings me to the question: does energy have to exist in the material universe? If so, then is energy beyond the laws of entropy? Interesting this concept of energy.
    Last edited by Dennison; August 27th, 2006 at 06:38 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  15. #15
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    Re: Name anything that can be considered perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennison
    Also, if you say everything has a source, then what is the source of time?
    The Big Bang, I believe, which created spacetime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennison
    Which brings me to the question: does energy have to exist in the material universe?
    Without energy and matter, the universe couldn't exist (as the universe is comprised of those), and, by the law of conservation of energy and matter, they collectively remain constant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennison
    If so, then is energy beyond the laws of entropy?
    Entropy decreases the amount of usable energy in the universe, not the amount of energy itself.
    Freedom is you choosing for yourself. Law is the government choosing for you. The two are opposites.

    Pray - To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce
    Faith - Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge about things without parallel - Ambrose Bierce

  16. #16
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    Re: Name anything that can be considered perfect

    A number of particle/quantum/string physics concepts are "timeless". The all-pervasive Higgs Field, for example, or branes, or dark energy. Granted, my understanding of theoretical physics is somewhat limited, so I may be wrong.
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  17. #17
    Dennison
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    Re: Name anything that can be considered perfect

    Hi Castle!

    Would "timeless" perhaps be a better word?
    Interesting. If something is timeless, does it cease to exist? Maybe you ar e correct. However, it has to be "timeless" in the sense that it is not bound by time, like energy.

    Abstractions cannot be perfect, as they require an intelligent mind to comprehend them.
    Maybe we need to define abstraction? And again, I am not looking for something that is perfect. Because, I personally do not agree to the definition that "perfect" is something that does not need any addition or subtraction. Or that the only perfection is imperfection because what is imperfection? To me, imperfection is the absence of perfection. Hence, perfection ceases to exist. In nothingness, nothing can exist, not even perfection.

    Au contraire. Time does not exist. Time is merely the word we use so that we can describe and measure the changing state of the universe.
    This would require a definition of existence. For me time, as an abstraction, exists. Just like love and beauty exists. Because the absence of time implies absence of matter because in the material universe, everything is bound by time simply because of their material nature.

    The below text has been automerged with this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    Einstein showed that time and space are inseparable. You agree that matter deteriorates from entropy. Since all matter and energy has not entropied to a neutral, unusable state, matter had a beginning. Therefore, time had a beginning. All things which have a beginning were created. Thus, time was created. Demonstrating that time cannot be God.
    Hmm, how can time have a beginning? For me, time is not just "beginning" itself, it transcends it. It is eternal.

    The below text has been automerged with this post.

    God
    Aside from God. It might start a theological debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldPhoenix View Post
    Indeed, but they still are not "perfect" by my working understanding of whathisname's definition of "perfect".

    I think they aren't supposed to change.
    I think it qualifies. Again, for something to be "perfect" by my definition of perfection, it has to be complete and it has to exist.
    Last edited by Dennison; August 27th, 2006 at 07:07 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  18. #18
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    Re: Name anything that can be considered perfect

    I contend that logic fits the given definition of perfection. It holds by itself, is constant, and does not degrade or die.
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    I'll give you a hint. Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think that you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.
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  19. #19
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    Re: Name anything that can be considered perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by emtee10
    I contend that logic fits the given definition of perfection. It holds by itself, is constant, and does not degrade or die.
    In what sense does logic exist outside of the human (or other intelligent creature's, I suppose) mind?
    Freedom is you choosing for yourself. Law is the government choosing for you. The two are opposites.

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  20. #20
    Dennison
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    Re: Name anything that can be considered perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    In what sense does logic exist outside of the human (or other intelligent creature's, I suppose) mind?
    I see your point. But, if logic does not exist outside the mind, what do you call cause and effect, or that which governs all that exists as a consequence of being bound by time (hence, they are also bound by consequence?)

 

 
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