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  1. #1
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    The 'Veil' and the West.

    Here in the UK the former Home Secretary, Jack Straw, has stirred up the Islamic community by a 'veiled' critique of their percieved separatist practices. He has had the 'temerity', or is it the 'balls', to ask constituency Moslems going to see him at his weekly 'surgery' to remove their veils.

    http://www.itv.com/news/britain_6be4...62b268eec.html

    Do you think that his comments are reasonable? How do US Reps and Senators handle the situation? It seems to me that identity is a pertinent issue. As is the argument that it is a symbol of 'separateness'; and that it can also be used as a tool for the subjugation of women.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
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  2. #2
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    Re: The 'Veil' and the West.

    I believe it was rude of him to ask them to remove their veils. It is an expression of their faith, of their way of life. Would he dare have asked a black, hispanic, homosexual, etc person to remove something which expressed who they are?

    The political correctness that grips the west wants to endorse diversity, while selectively trying to eliminate certain things which add to our diversity. If it is not the diversity they like then your screwed. It tries to promote freedom by forcing integration and through this attempting to eliminate certain forms of expression which directly limits our freedom of expression. Go figure.
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  3. #3
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    Re: The 'Veil' and the West.

    1) As usual, fundamentalist Muslims got their burqa's in a bunch.

    2) The reason he asked for them to remove it (the full veil, not a half veil) while in his offices was that it made it very difficult and uncomfortable trying to develop a personal relationship with someone in front of him, whose face he could not see. He hasn't insisted or mandated that muslim women who wear veils do this (as far as I can tell), but instead, has asked them to do so out of courtesy.

    3) That the veil is obligatory, is highly controversial. Many scholars proclaim that it is not.

    3) At least one Muslim organization agrees with Straw. The leader of this group (Leader of the Commons) said wearing the full veil was "bound to make better, positive relations between the two communities more difficult". Which is Straw's position and I agree.

    4) The charges from fundamentalist groups that this is selective discrimination is asnine. It isn't that they are Muslim, it is that by wearing such clothing makes it extremely difficult to build proper relationships.

    I agree with him 100%. There was a similar case in FL where Muslim women were outraged because they had to *gasp* abide by state law that said if you wanted to take a photo identification (driver's license or state I.D.), the full veil had to be taken off and a view of the face must be on the I.D.). It's absurd to hold the position that you are special in that the laws do not apply to you, but to everyone else.

    The fact is, the same rules and policies do apply to everyone, and the same requests are being made to everyone...therefore, there is no discrimination.

    The below text has been automerged with this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737 View Post
    I believe it was rude of him to ask them to remove their veils. It is an expression of their faith, of their way of life. Would he dare have asked a black, hispanic, homosexual, etc person to remove something which expressed who they are?
    If what they were wearing made relations difficult, absolutely!

    The problem is, there isn't an equivelant here Chad.
    Last edited by Apokalupsis; October 6th, 2006 at 11:22 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  4. #4
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    Re: The 'Veil' and the West.

    I think it also should be noted, that in the Western world it is a sign of dissrespect to avoid eye contact during conversation. For example, it would be considered rude if you wore a pair of sunglasses while talking to someone. Once again, though, we find Musims chanting, "When in Rome, do as the ?.."
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  5. #5
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    Re: The 'Veil' and the West.

    I agree with him.

    Muslims can wear what they like in private, it doesn't affect me. But what really grinds my gears is when a fuss is made over a situation like this. Muslims should respect the customs and social etiquette of the country they choose to live in, as do the vast majoritry of other immigrants.

    As for them "expressing their way of life", imagine if a European woman went to Baghdad and "expressed her way of life" by wearing a tank top and short skirt...

    When a Westerner, or any other non Middle-Eastern person goes to the Middle-East, he or she is expected to respect the customs and social tradition of the area, yet when a Muslim comes to the West, it is an outrage to suggest the same.

  6. #6
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    Re: The 'Veil' and the West.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voice View Post
    I agree with him.

    Muslims can wear what they like in private, it doesn't affect me. But what really grinds my gears is when a fuss is made over a situation like this. Muslims should respect the customs and social etiquette of the country they choose to live in, as do the vast majoritry of other immigrants.

    As for them "expressing their way of life", imagine if a European woman went to Baghdad and "expressed her way of life" by wearing a tank top and short skirt...

    When a Westerner, or any other non Middle-Eastern person goes to the Middle-East, he or she is expected to respect the customs and social tradition of the area, yet when a Muslim comes to the West, it is an outrage to suggest the same.
    Also, Mr. Straw asked for the removal of the veil only, and not the complete head cover. In the context of a 'political surgery' where confidential and sensitive information may be traded, I feel it is germaine for him to be able to cross reference a face with a name, just in case there are any 'come-backs' or 'controversies'. After all the face is in effect an important 'ID card'.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
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  7. #7
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    Re: The 'Veil' and the West.

    I don't see how "it makes it difficult to establish relationships" is a valid enough reason to ban the wearing of the veil. You might as well ban sunglasses, hats, makeup, stubborn mindedness and jerks under the same rationale. The I.D. situation I can understand but this is patently absurd in my book.

    Anyways, the issue is simply distractive from more important issues. You know... the ones that actually disrupt social stability. There's only a few thousand women who wear these anyhow.
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  8. #8
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    Re: The 'Veil' and the West.

    paintist - Tell Saudi, and a lot of other 'Islamic' countries to loosen up then, and RECIPROCATE - what is bleedin' sauce for the goose is sauce for the bleedin' gander - fair is bleedin' fair and all that; or does furkin' Islam call all the shots? {Caliphate and Sharia and all????????????????????????????????????

    Talking about knee-jerks, is it only Islam that is permitted to knee-jerk?
    I can see a one-way flow of 'give and take' in your argument. 'We' give and 'they' take?

    ps. Sunglasses and broad-brimmed hats and the like are not the norm in a 'political surgery', and I believe they do not pass muster for an ID mug shot in the Western diaspora.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  9. #9
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    Re: The 'Veil' and the West.

    Isn't the West the side that is supposed to be the one that practices freedom of expression, religion, and so forth. You know, aren't we the ones that are supposed to practice religous tolerance?

    Again, I think the topic is being blown out of proportion for all the wrong reasons. There are more pressing matters we aren't focusing on.
    I rebel - therefore we exist.

  10. #10
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    Re: The 'Veil' and the West.

    Perhaps you would have 'us' roll over like unquestioning puppies and have our long fought for rights infringed upon - the 'veil' is part of Sharia, and it is Sharia that those who observe, and are told to observe, such practices seem to be after for the 'west'; and indeed the rest of the world.

    I agree that the likes of Bush, Blair and co. should allow the Islamic world to 'do their own' thing and 'repress and subjugate their 'own people'. While their attentions are diverted in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, Islam is using our greater freedoms in 'our' own countries to use democracy in order to seek to subvert it.

    As I have said, virtually ALL the observing Muslims I have spoken with are working for a worldwide Caliphate And the 'tender mercies' of Sharia.

    I am reminded of the guy languishing in a gaol in Pakistan who was aquitted by the secular courts, but is still there because the Sharia mob want to kill him anyway. I have 'seen' public stoning to death of women after highly dubious trials. I have 'seen' homosexuals hanged for doing what homosexuals do. I know about so-called 'honour killings', we have had a number of them here in the UK. The Islamic 'religious' seek to bring 'their ways to the west, and call foul if we don't permit them; but try building a church in places like Saudi, or pushing to allow their citizens to openly debate anything other than a certain perception of Islam alone!

    It is not that long ago that 3 or 4 Saudi Christians were executed by the Sharia courts for speaking about Christianity to some Muslims. The courts 'automatically' took this as trying to 'tempt' Muslims away from 'the one true faith'; and that such a thing warranted death, since Sharia and Dhimmi did not permit/tolerate it.

    You speak of liberty, rights and tolerence, well should we tolerate threats to our own rights and liberty?
    Last edited by FruitandNut; October 8th, 2006 at 07:58 PM.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  11. #11
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    Re: The 'Veil' and the West.

    Now you're going on about something of a different nature. Before we were talking about the socially ineffectual fashion of a few thousand Muslim women wearing a veil and now you're talking about the threat Sharia law poses to the West. Ban the veil if you want but it is not as big of a problem as it's being made out to be. Jack Straws conflation with the veil being worn and "separatist feelings" is nothing short of McCarthyism.

    You speak of liberty, rights and tolerence, well should we tolerate threats to our own rights and liberty?
    For the most part, I don't think we should. But the veil isn't exactly one of those 'threats' worthy of banishment. The closest thing I can think of that is similar to the veil is the Jewish kippah. It's a garment worn due to religious custom. If we aren't rolling over like "unquestioning puppies" by allowing Jewish men to wear these then we shouldn't be pissing and moaning about a veil being worn.

    Secondly, which do you support- religious tolerance or religious intolerance fuel by a transitory threat? I'll support whatever, as long as we recognize the fact that if we legislate in states of fear that when the fear is gone we'll end up having unjustified laws.
    I rebel - therefore we exist.

  12. #12
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    Re: The 'Veil' and the West.

    Quote Originally Posted by paintist View Post
    Now you're going on about something of a different nature. Before we were talking about the socially ineffectual fashion of a few thousand Muslim women wearing a veil and now you're talking about the threat Sharia law poses to the West. Ban the veil if you want but it is not as big of a problem as it's being made out to be. Jack Straws conflation with the veil being worn and "separatist feelings" is nothing short of McCarthyism.


    For the most part, I don't think we should. But the veil isn't exactly one of those 'threats' worthy of banishment. The closest thing I can think of that is similar to the veil is the Jewish kippah. It's a garment worn due to religious custom. If we aren't rolling over like "unquestioning puppies" by allowing Jewish men to wear these then we shouldn't be pissing and moaning about a veil being worn.

    Secondly, which do you support- religious tolerance or religious intolerance fuel by a transitory threat? I'll support whatever, as long as we recognize the fact that if we legislate in states of fear that when the fear is gone we'll end up having unjustified laws.

    It is hardly a 'storm in a teacup' issue; without identity a lot of criminality may be indulged with no legal come back, for instance.
    Here in the UK banks and shops often ask/require people to lower hoods or remove full and tinted helmets/visors when entering the premises. It is really down to a question of whose rights are the priority, when 'rights' clash.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

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    Re: The 'Veil' and the West.

    Wait, now you're saying Muslim women who wear veils are similar to ninjas and liqour store robbers who wear ski masks and chavs who wear hoods? Puh-leaze. Well, it isn't important. UK banks and shops and any other businesses and schools can ask whomever they want whatever they want - it's their territory and their rules.

    I just think we shouldn't make this issue of religious fashion institutionalized.
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  14. #14
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    Re: The 'Veil' and the West.

    I am saying that not all 'Goodly and Godly' are always so. There are cases of 'wolves in sheep's clothing'. Hell, John Snow?, a senior and well known Brit. reporter got into Taliban administered Afghanistan a few years back, dressed in a burkha! And he is built a bit like a brick outhouse.

    paintist - Ignore the issues if you like, others do not feel they have that 'luxury'. Thank God for Churchill and not 'paintist' back in the 1930s!
    Last edited by FruitandNut; October 9th, 2006 at 08:54 PM.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  15. #15
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    Re: The 'Veil' and the West.

    Quote Originally Posted by paintist View Post
    Now you're going on about something of a different nature. Before we were talking about the socially ineffectual fashion of a few thousand Muslim women wearing a veil
    No, this isn't what we've been talking about. They can wear the veil as they please out and about town. But when doing business or in an atomosphere of negotiation, identification, etc... it is necessary and in the best interest of ALL parties, to comply with obvious standards.

    Also, it isn't a ban, it is a request made by an individual in government office doing government business.

    I suppose you believe it is acceptable for Muslim women who wear complete head covers to have their faces hidden in their photo ID's? Why is this a good idea? If you don't believe this, then why the inconsistency?
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  16. #16
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    Re: The 'Veil' and the West.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apok
    I suppose you believe it is acceptable for Muslim women who wear complete head covers to have their faces hidden in their photo ID's? Why is this a good idea? If you don't believe this, then why the inconsistency?
    You suppose wrong as I said in my first post in this thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by me
    The I.D. situation I can understand but this is patently absurd in my book.
    I can understand that it needs to be removed for sake of identification but saying it should be removed because people want to be your friends - is a crappy reason. People make stable relationships over the internet (business and otherwise) suggesting that the importance of seeing another persons face in establishing a relationship is not as important as people think.

    Also, it isn't a ban, it is a request made by an individual in government office doing government business.
    I suppose you're right. However...
    Quote Originally Posted by BBC interview
    Asked whether he would prefer veils to be abolished completely, Mr Straw said: "Yes. It needs to be made clear I am not talking about being prescriptive but with all the caveats, yes, I would rather."
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/5413470.stm
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  17. #17
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    Re: The 'Veil' and the West.

    Quote Originally Posted by paintist View Post
    People make stable relationships over the internet (business and otherwise) suggesting that the importance of seeing another persons face in establishing a relationship is not as important as people think.
    I absolutely disagree. It goes against all sales and negotiations training paintist. Do you have any evidence to your claim?

    Also, why shouldn't one be expected to comply with policies, regulations, or cultural beliefs when in another's country? What's wrong with doing so?

    Why must it be the case that self is elevated above all else? Isn't this extreme egoism?
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  18. #18
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    Re: The 'Veil' and the West.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    I absolutely disagree. It goes against all sales and negotiations training paintist. Do you have any evidence to your claim?
    Right, it's a very interesting paradigm shift. The management and creation of the Linux OS was, as far as I know, done through just email correspondence. There are endless internet success stories on where the foundations for stable and long lasting friendships and loving relationships were made. This might be a poor example, but there have been people who become obsessed with telephone sex operators. And imagine how many lives were saved by suicide hotline operators? Granted, a face adds tons of information to a negotiation but it isn't absolutely necessary for successful and meaningful relationships. It is just sufficient and desired.

    Also, why shouldn't one be expected to comply with policies, regulations, or cultural beliefs when in another's country? What's wrong with doing so?
    I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just saying one can go on expecting someone to comply with social norms and folkways but everyone has the right to not comply with those norms and folkways (as long as it's within the law, of course). I personally don't believe that totally assimilation or integration into a society is a necessity for immigrations. It's not even a necessity for citizens. I, and I'm sure you too, don't obey every single thing society demands of us.

    Why must it be the case that self is elevated above all else?
    Well that's the big question of our time, isn't it?
    I rebel - therefore we exist.

  19. #19
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    Re: The 'Veil' and the West.

    Not addressing your post yet paintist...but pointing out a recent news story about a major terrorist (male) who evaded police by wearing a burka.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...395178,00.html

    Just one more reason why they shouldn't be allowed. Why not allow people to wear full ski-masks because of their religion?
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  20. #20
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    Re: The 'Veil' and the West.

    The burqa is not mandated by the Qur'an. It is mandated by centuries of patriarchal Arab tradition.

 

 
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