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  1. #1
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    UK sued for 'reparations'.

    The UK is being sued for using torture in Kenya back in the 'twilight of empire' days 50 yrs ago. Since most if not all of those directly accountable for any atrocities (military and political) and the 'gulag' that contained most of the 1.5 million of the Kikuyu tribe who were the wellspring of the colonial and inter-tribal revolt will be dead or very aged, I ask the question, "Should those who were children, or not yet born, be held morally or fiscally responsible for what others may have done"?

    It is ironic that in this case it is the Mau Mau survivours and their families who are filing for compensation, since they indulged in terror tactics and torture in the first place.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/5411030.stm

    'Historians have long viewed Mau Mau as both a nationalist movement and a civil war between those who joined its ranks and the Kikuyu who refused to join for a variety of reasons. These included adherence to Christianity, employment in the colonial administration, revulsion with the content of oathing ceremonies, and rejection of insensate killing and violence. The preponderance of evidence suggests that some one hundred whites, eighteen hundred Africans, and twelve thousand Mau Mau adherents died during the slightly more than seven years of the Emergency, which lasted from October 21, 1952, until January 12, 1960. Some eighty thousand people (mostly Kikuyu), or 1 percent of Kenya's then eight million population, were held in detention for varying periods of time, and 1,090 men were hanged for various crimes related to Mau Mau activities.'

    http://muse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/access.c...3imperato.html


    There are those who say that if the court adjudicates in favour of compensation, that it could open a 'flood gate'. I am reminded of the case only a few years back where an IRA 'murderer' got compensation on some relative 'technicality'.

    At least the Brits didn't carpet bomb whole areas, like Uncle Sam did more recently in places like Laos and Cambodia.

    How do you guys feel about other generations 'paying' for the percieved 'sins' of earlier generations.

    I have heard about being 'my brothers' keeper', but perhaps this may be just extracting the urine a tad.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  2. #2
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    Re: UK sued for 'reparations'.

    I think far too many sins of the father are passed to the children. But the British conciousness should be reprimanded. So that when you sing "God save the Queen" you don't get to have a false image of an ever-beautiful country. You have to remember your nation did some distasteful things, and that no one ever answered for them.
    It's always an absolute, one or the other. Either we acknowledge past evils, and make modern descendants pay for something they didn't do, or the sins are ignored, shut out, or justified away. Both are wrong. Modern generations owe to the victums of ancestorl aggression is national shame. So whenever they start getting full of themselves with nationalistic sentiment, they are always tinged by the thought that there country is far from "perfect"

  3. #3
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    Re: UK sued for 'reparations'.

    Reparations are tricky for me. Without a doubt (well in general, if the survivors are innocent in the whole ordeal) survivors, children of people killed, and spouses of those who were killed should all get reparations. This specific case? Not so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by F&N
    At least the Brits didn't carpet bomb whole areas, like Uncle Sam did more recently in places like Laos and Cambodia.
    So therefore what the Brits did was less worse then what the US did? I'm not understanding your point. What does the US have to do with any of this?
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." ~Bertrand Russell

  4. #4
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    Re: UK sued for 'reparations'.

    Jamie - My point is, just how far to we take this chest beating thing? Yes, we are imperfect beings, ALL OF US, but do I have to feel I have to say sorry for others?

    All countries have their 'bad eggs', all countries if given the opportunity to become powerful, will do larger scale wrongs than others. Do we all start sueing eachother for 'history'? Should all nations go to the UN assembly hall and all make a public declaration of sorrow and regret for past misdeeds done in the name of their nation?

    We tend to focus on the glory bit of winning WWII, but during that conflict all the 'good guys' did 'bad things', we fire bombed 100,000s of people who did not start the war and were powerless to stop it. Just the 'other day' I saw film of US troops systematically shooting wounded Japanese soldiers rather like they were terminally sick dogs. Yes, some wounded 'Japs' had primed grenades ready for 'use', but they were actually the minority. It seems as though all were made to pay the penalty for the deeds of others. Is the concept of 'collective guilt' a fair one? One of the problems about admitting to the wrongs of the past is that later generations seem to want to queue up to sue for fiscal damages. Because they cannot 'get at' the purpetrators they home in on those they feel have some sort of connection, no matter how morally or ethically spurious or tenuous. There are African Americans wanting recompense/'a free ride' from the US government and 'white' people for the slavery of their ancestors. There are groups in Africa who seek similar money from the Brits. Once the precedent is established, just how far back do we take it? If there is a 'cut off' point, wouldn't that be arbitary, and therefore unfair?

    According to the NT, Jesus when in the 'Garden' of Gethsemane/'Gat Shemen' wept blood because He felt the 'weight of the collective guilt' of mankind - should we all be expected to go through a similar experience?

    Here and now I express publically my own personal regret and sorrow for ALL the 'evil' and selfishness of mankind (that includes myself) since 'Adam and Eve' partook of the 'Forbidden Fruit' and 'Cain terminally clobbered Abel'; and that which will be committed in the present and in the future - now queue up folks, 'those who are without sin', and sue me!


    Turtleflip - Tribes and nations have been bashing eachother and stealing from eachother down the millennia - that being the case, we should ALL feel 'SHAME'. Why just pick on 'honky man', after all, not all of us are rich cherries ready for picking in the courts of law.
    Last edited by FruitandNut; October 12th, 2006 at 01:19 AM.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  5. #5
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    Re: UK sued for 'reparations'.

    Why not ?
    How about we just pay reparations according to the number of humans each govenment/group of people killed.

    I'm thinkin europe and north america top the list

  6. #6
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    Re: UK sued for 'reparations'.

    Why? Any sort of bias and prejudice and such stuff there, perchace?????????
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  7. #7
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    Re: UK sued for 'reparations'.

    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut View Post
    Why? Any sort of bias and prejudice and such stuff there, perchace?????????
    You're right, my apologies.

    How about we make governments pay just for the land that they stole?

    Or maybe make governmens pay for all the wars of aggression or colonialism and imperialism they innitiated?

    No wait, lets just make nations pay in proportion to how much they gained from stealing land or resources and poeple killed or enslaved ?

    Damnit, no matter how I try to cut it, it appears north america and europe are always competing for the top two spots ?

    Someone help me, my bias is blinding me to the truth, help me find a way to make africa pay reparations to europe or north america or anywhere!

  8. #8
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    Re: UK sued for 'reparations'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuruusan View Post
    Why not ?
    How about we just pay reparations according to the number of humans each govenment/group of people killed.
    Going back how far? Would you be happy to compensate some group of people somewhere because your ancestors killed their ancestors 1000 years ago?

    I'm sitting on land that would have been the territory of an Aboriginal tribe a little over 200 years ago. They probably bumped off some other tribe to get it, who in turn took over from someone else, and so on going back thousands of years. Why should I be responsible or feel guilty that my tribe was stronger? That was the way of the world, up until this current age of diplomacy and international law.
    No free man shall be seized or imprisoned, or stripped of his rights or possessions, or outlawed or exiled, or deprived of his standing in any other way, nor will we proceed with force against him, or send others to do so, except by the lawful judgement of his equals or by the law of the land.
    - The Magna Carta, 1225

  9. #9
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    Re: UK sued for 'reparations'.

    Yuruusan - Prince Charles and other people are 'sitting in ownership' of land that was 'owned' by my ancestors. They in turn had stolen it from others, killing and injuring many. Those people almost certaining knocked off or drove the people who 'owned' it before. Tribes and nations, as mog has mentioned have been knocking seven bells out of eachother and stealing land, property and even people since 'Cain and Abel'. Why should current White Westerners (whether rich or poor) be made the 'fall-guys' who have to cough up? If China and India become the next super-powers to kick all our butts, I think that it is to them 'you' could well be turning your attention and demanding restitution.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  10. #10
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    Re: UK sued for 'reparations'.

    Reparations cannot be made to extinct tribes or annihilated peoples, so it only goes back if that group of victimized people still exist.

    If india or china carve up the planet between them, at least more of humanity would get benefits from that scenario.
    Well over 1/3 of humanity as compared to north america and western europes 500 mil or so ? I'd make that trade and call it even stevens

  11. #11
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    Re: UK sued for 'reparations'.

    Isn't Germany still paying Holocaust reparations to Jewish victims' families? If so, that would make German taxpayers born after the Holocaust collectively guilty also. Should Germany cease paying Holocaust reparations to absolve later generations of any financial burden and hence responsibility?

    In my view, there is no cookie cutter solution to reparations; no "statute of limitations" for each and every case. Each society must make an agreement with the victims and go from there. I don't think we can apply the American experience with the Indians to the Kikuyu tribe in Kenya. If Britain and Kenya think it advantagious for future relations to set up a reparations fund, then why not? If they can't agree, then so be it.
    "If God had not intended for us to eat animals, how come He made them out of meat?"

    Sarah Palin, Going Rogue

 

 

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