Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 119
  1. #1
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    4,896
    Post Thanks / Like

    Why I am no longer a Christian

    While I have been unofficially non-Christian for very long, I have not come out officially because I still harboured doubts and stood on the fence. But after a long, serious period of introspection, I have come to decide that Christianity was really not credible. In this thread, I will be penning some of my thoughts on why I have decided to reject the Christian doctrine.

    While this was not meant to be a debate, but rather a sharing session on my real thoughts, I do welcome attempts to point out errors in my reasoning. Perhaps I may yet be convinced regarding the truth of Christianity. Before continuing though, I must warn all Christians that the proceeding views may be very offensive and heretical, and if you do not wish to feel outraged, offended or have your religious beliefs challenged, please stop here.


    Basically, the entire Christian belief system started to look like a farce to me. It struck me as inconceivable that an omniscient God would create a universe and say that "all was good", when he knew beforehand that Satan would come and corrupt mankind with sin. It also struck me as inconceivable that, being armed with the knowledge that Satan would turn mankind against him, God did not take preventive measures to stop it from happening. Instead, he had to resort to massive floods to drown out his creations when they became too evil, which is really quite a crude way of solving the problem, and betrays God's ineptness and lack of foresight and planning (assuming he exists, which I have come to disbelieve). Surely God couldn't have said to himself in advance, "I know that at this point in time humankind would become very rebellious, and to counter that I would invoke a great flood and drown all of them"?

    Also, since God is omnipotent and the creator of everything, it also follows that if there exists a Hell, then God must have created it too, or allowed it to be created. Thus, God actively engineered or condoned a place of ETERNAL SUFFERING. If he was so omnipotent, surely he could find a more palatable place to house the non-believers? Especially considering that he was the one who created them and could have predicted the final choice of these people - whether or not they would embrace Christianity.

    To see how omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence cannot be reconciled with the concept of Hell, take this scenario: God decides to create a man. Being omniscient, he knows that this man will ultimately reject Christianity and go to Hell. Yet God continues creating this man, and does not make this man believe in him. So, we have a God who creates a being whom he knows is ultimately headed to eternal torment. Thus, we either have a God who is not omnipotent (does not have full control over the choice to create), a God who is not omniscient (cannot foresee the final outcome of his creation), or a God who is not benevolent (knowingly allows a creation of his to end up in eternal suffering). So either one of the traits has to go, or Hell doesn't exist. I cannot see a third way out of this.

    In fact, the more I looked at it, the more farcical this concept of God appeared to be. We have a God who creates humans for no apparent reason other than to worship himself. We know that on Earth, we are supposed to trust in God, pray to him, worship him and witness to non-believers. When we go to Heaven, we will be praising God forever. So, is the entire point of creation just to add to God's army of worshippers? Do humans go through all the pain and suffering, trials and tribulations just to end up as God's worshippers? And remember, some of these creations of God turn up in Hell, just because they didn't believe.

    The conclusion I arrived at was this: God was bored. He wanted some people to talk to him, he wanted some people to worship and depend on him for their lives' direction. Or perhaps he wanted a challenge - to see how many people would willingly believe in him and accept him as their Lord and Saviour without him exerting too much of his omnipotent powers to interfere with their free will. So it is all like a game to him. After all, what other explanation is there for creating humans? It certainly isn't for God's sake, because he doesn't need anything; and it certainly isn't for our sake, because if we weren't created, we wouldn't exist in the first place and thus wouldn't need anything either.

    Now let's take a look at the other highlight of the Bible - that of the Crucifixion. The Crucifixion has been touted as the zenith of selfless love and sacrifice. When I was a young kid, I, too, was moved by the account of Jesus suffering immense torment just to save us sinners who totally didn't deserve it at all. But when I applied the lenses of reason to this account, the shroud of mysticism evaporated away as well, and I was left with an account of sacrifice which I found unimpressive and even ridiculous.

    We must keep in mind that God is omnipotent and omniscient. Thus, he knew beforehand that even if he sent his son down to die on the cross, the suffering would only be temporary and in the end his son would be resurrected and rise to Heaven again. We must further keep in mind that everything was God's creation, and be it through his doing or his inertia, he allowed sin to corrupt humankind. Thus, he is ultimately accountable for all the sinfulness and corruption in the world - indeed, he knew beforehand that it would happen, or he would not be omniscient.

    Viewed in light of that, how is the Crucifixion anything spectacular at all? God knew that everything would work out alright for Jesus in the end. Also, it was not the case that God saved us through sheer grace and kindness of his; it was the case that not only did he allow humankind to fall to sin, he also created mankind with full knowledge that this would happen. In short, he was at least indirectly responsible for what was happening, and being the omniscient Creator, he was ultimately accountable for all of it.

    Take this scenario: A mother brings her kid to a place with a lot of traps and pitfalls, then allows the kid to roam freely in it, knowing full well that the kid was a mischievous one prone to accidents. And when as expected, the kid fell down and hurt himself, the mother sacrificed her time and money to treat the kid and nurse him back to health. Would you call this mother a gracious and kind mother? Would you praise her as the epitome of selflessness and love? Or would you deride her for exposing her child to danger in the first place, especially since she knew that the child would inevitably be hurt? And even if it wasn't the mother's fault at all that the child got hurt, wouldn't you say that as the mother who brought the child into the world, she is responsible for his well-being in the first place?

    Thus, in terms of grace or kindness, the Crucifixion was not really very impressive. Christians like to say "Oh we are so unworthy of Jesus' sacrifice", but they never stop to think: Who made us this way in the first place? Isn't God ultimately responsible for our unworthiness, for he was the one who created us and knew how we would turn out beforehand?

    Also, it is not the case that the Crucifixion was such a humongous sacrifice. I would contend that Jesus' sacrifice at the Cross pales in comparison to that of the soldier who is tortured to death refusing to reveal national secrets, or the mother who dies to save her children. The latter two died without being sure what would happen to them - whether they would go to Heaven or Hell, what would happen to their family, etc - whereas Jesus died knowing all would work out well in the end. It is comparatively easy to submit yourself to execution when you know you would be resurrected in three days.

    Among all the other reasons, the above are the main reasons why I have come to reject Christianity. It is not a mere thing about inaccuracies in the Bible or scientific findings which contradict Creationist accounts; it is that I find the entire account of the Creation, the Crucifixion and the concept of God farcical and unbelievable. As these doubts run right to the foundation and root of Christianity, I find myself no longer able to justify or explain them away. Unless something miraculous happens to convince me otherwise, I am afraid I cannot believe in Christianity anymore.
    Last edited by Trendem; October 16th, 2006 at 01:47 AM.
    Trendem

  2. #2
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Sheffield, S.Yorks., UK
    Posts
    8,862
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why I am no longer a Christian

    NO, NOTHING THERE THAT HASN'T CROSSED MINE OWN MIND, HOWEVER FLEETINGLY.

    There is I heck of a list of issues and arguments in your post, most of which I recall having already been aired and generally tossed to and frow in other threads.

    It seems for one that you don't fully comprehend the nature and effect that the 'passion and crucifixion' of Jesus had on his very human nature and emotions - please remember that it is contended that Jesus is 'wholly man', as well as being God - He had a dual nature and the human side was not protected from pain, doubt and other tiresome experiences that the likes of you and myself are confronted by.

    In Gethsemene it is argued that Jesus was confronted by the full emotional awfullness and trauma of the 'sins, atrocities and transgressions' of all of humanity for all of time. It was this that made Him weep blood soaked tears.

    It is because God allowed humans to evolve brains that know the difference between right and wrong and have some choice in our decision making, and yet still retain fallibility; that God through Jesus has in effect made a 'contract' of salvation. God's 'signature' is on it, all it now requires is our own!
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  3. #3
    I've been given a "timeout"

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Who are you? Why are you asking me this?
    Posts
    4,064
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why I am no longer a Christian

    What is pain, or pleasure, to the eternal nothing we arose from? Two sides of the same coin of expiernece, unbreakable symmetry.
    God made an entity just to suffer, but is that worse then not living? Is even hell preferable to oblivion?

    Your comment about life being a game, God would never do that. It would be boring as hell. He made everything and programmed all the lines of dialouge, intrigue and stuff.
    Personally, I imagine the nature of a benevolent creator is bring life to what was not life. Rescue us from non-existence.

    Finally, about suffering still being around. I think that's just a part of life. Because there is such high peaks, there must be dark troughs. Of course, god could have made the whole world entirely level. But is a world of no joy but no pain really better then ours?

  4. #4
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    4,896
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why I am no longer a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut View Post
    NO, NOTHING THERE THAT HASN'T CROSSED MINE OWN MIND, HOWEVER FLEETINGLY.
    Then I am truly amazed how you continue to keep your faith in God. Perhaps you have experienced life-changing events which have sealed your faith; I have not.

    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut View Post
    It seems for one that you don't fully comprehend the nature and effect that the 'passion and crucifixion' of Jesus had on his very human nature and emotions - please remember that it is contended that Jesus is 'wholly man', as well as being God - He had a dual nature and the human side was not protected from pain, doubt and other tiresome experiences that the likes of you and myself are confronted by.

    In Gethsemene it is argued that Jesus was confronted by the full emotional awfullness and trauma of the 'sins, atrocities and transgressions' of all of humanity for all of time. It was this that made Him weep blood soaked tears.
    You misunderstand my argument. I am not saying that Jesus didn't suffer on the cross; I am saying that his suffering wasn't that great because he knew he would come out of it safe and well in the end. He knew the suffering was only temporary.

    Furthermore, all humans were created by God in the first place, and he could see into the future and know that they would be corrupted by sin. So why did he not do something to stop all the suffering from happening beforehand? See my mother analogy.

    And lastly, what is sin? You speak of sin as if it were some awful otherworldly substance which Jesus had to confront. But wasn't God the one who defined sin in the first place, and by doing so, "created" it? So isn't he again the one ultimately responsible for all the sin in the world? If God hated sin so much, then why did he have to create it?

    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut View Post
    It is because God allowed humans to evolve brains that know the difference between right and wrong and have some choice in our decision making, and yet still retain fallibility; that God through Jesus has in effect made a 'contract' of salvation. God's 'signature' is on it, all it now requires is our own!
    Why does God want to go to all the trouble of creating us and giving us free will?
    Trendem

  5. #5
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Sheffield, S.Yorks., UK
    Posts
    8,862
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why I am no longer a Christian

    Trendy, God did not create sin, it is the 'fact' that He allowed the knowledge of right and wrong AND fallibility in humans that afforded us the laterality to sin. God does not sin, we sin.

    If I could answer your last question I would be explaining the depths of the inner motives of God.

    ps. I suspect that to God the creation of the universe and ourselves is no difficult achievement.

    pps. The humanity of Jesus on the Cross is expressed by His very human doubt and fear in His dying moments. Just before He said 'It is finished' - thus stating that His 'physical task' had been accomplished - he also said, "Eli Eli Lama sabachthani?"

    The scripture in question is in Matthew 27:

    " From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"

    ["Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" in King James Version Bible] -- which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" ( Matthew 27:45-46, NIV)

    Here is the Greek text: hli hli

    Eli, Eli (or Eloi, Eloi): literally God, God

    lama

    lama or lamma: literally why

    sabacqani

    sabachthani: literally you have forsaken (abandoned) me
    Last edited by FruitandNut; October 16th, 2006 at 03:30 AM.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  6. #6
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    4,896
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why I am no longer a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut View Post
    Trendy, God did not create sin, it is the 'fact' that He allowed the knowledge of right and wrong AND fallibility in humans that afforded us the laterality to sin. God does not sin, we sin.
    Then where did sin come from? Who defined which acts were sinful and which were not?

    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut View Post
    If I could answer your last question I would be explaining the depths of the inner motives of God.
    This is always the response Christians resort to - "We cannot know the depths of God's thinking, His ways are higher than ours, so we should just put faith in him". I do not believe in blind faith, Fruit. The plain facts tell us that God created us to worship him.

    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut View Post
    pps. The humanity of Jesus on the Cross is expressed by His very human doubt and fear in His dying moments. Just before He said 'It is finished' - thus stating that His 'physical task' had been accomplished - he also said, "Eli Eli Lama sabachthani?"
    As I've said, I am not disputing that Jesus did suffer on the cross. Why is this so hard to understand? I am saying that this suffering is not all that remarkable considering that for one, Jesus knew it would work out for good, and for two, God was ultimately responsible for the way the Earth turned out anyway. Please read my op again for the in-depth analysis on this.
    Trendem

  7. #7
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Sheffield, S.Yorks., UK
    Posts
    8,862
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why I am no longer a Christian

    Do you have a sense of right and wrong? Do you have a sense of the moral and ethical? Well the concept of sin is based on the downsides of that. It is the part us that is in effect the baseness and selfishness that is knowingly over-indulged in. Christians and most other theists believe in the 'goodness' of God, and that it is in transgressing goodness that we wander off from God. It is through sin that we voluntarily turn our back on God.

    God can only be held responsible if you mean responsible of creating fallible humans with the capacity to do wrong as well as right. I think you are defining 'responsibility' beyond its rational remit.

    God does not want any 'Abdullahs'/'Slaves of Allah', what He wishes are willing disciples and acolytes.

    ps. Faith need not be blind, I believe that God leaves a 'trail in the sand' if only we choose to 'see' it. It is just that science as we know it has limits, and that the Creator of the universe and its rules/laws are necessarily and 'logically' outside those constriants and conventions.

    God did not define sin except in as far as it is a quality that He doesn't possess. It is humans that can be both Obi ben Kanobi AND Darth Vader! God is a 'two-headed coin' it is us humans that have the 'head and tail' sides.
    Last edited by FruitandNut; October 16th, 2006 at 04:45 AM.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  8. #8
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    7,671
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why I am no longer a Christian

    I was never a Christian - that puts us in the same boat right now - destined for hell. Oh well, hell is swell if you don't mind the smell.

    Cheer up - there is always a chance that you'll embrace Christianity again. Either that or you might find Islam more appealing? ... or you can just pretend that God doesn't exist. Any way you choose it, it's all good.
    While laughing at others stupidity, you may want to contemplate your own comedic talents. (link)
    Disclaimer: This information is being provided for informational, educational, and entertainment purposes only.

  9. #9
    I've been given a "timeout"

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Banville
    Posts
    4,160
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why I am no longer a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Trendem View Post
    While I have been unofficially non-Christian for very long, I have not come out officially because I still harboured doubts and stood on the fence. But after a long, serious period of introspection, I have come to decide that Christianity was really not credible. In this thread, I will be penning some of my thoughts on why I have decided to reject the Christian doctrine.

    While this was not meant to be a debate, but rather a sharing session on my real thoughts, I do welcome attempts to point out errors in my reasoning. Perhaps I may yet be convinced regarding the truth of Christianity. Before continuing though, I must warn all Christians that the proceeding views may be very offensive and heretical, and if you do not wish to feel outraged, offended or have your religious beliefs challenged, please stop here.


    Basically, the entire Christian belief system started to look like a farce to me. It struck me as inconceivable that an omniscient God would create a universe and say that "all was good", when he knew beforehand that Satan would come and corrupt mankind with sin. It also struck me as inconceivable that, being armed with the knowledge that Satan would turn mankind against him, God did not take preventive measures to stop it from happening. Instead, he had to resort to massive floods to drown out his creations when they became too evil, which is really quite a crude way of solving the problem, and betrays God's ineptness and lack of foresight and planning (assuming he exists, which I have come to disbelieve). Surely God couldn't have said to himself in advance, "I know that at this point in time humankind would become very rebellious, and to counter that I would invoke a great flood and drown all of them"?

    Also, since God is omnipotent and the creator of everything, it also follows that if there exists a Hell, then God must have created it too, or allowed it to be created. Thus, God actively engineered or condoned a place of ETERNAL SUFFERING. If he was so omnipotent, surely he could find a more palatable place to house the non-believers? Especially considering that he was the one who created them and could have predicted the final choice of these people - whether or not they would embrace Christianity.

    To see how omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence cannot be reconciled with the concept of Hell, take this scenario: God decides to create a man. Being omniscient, he knows that this man will ultimately reject Christianity and go to Hell. Yet God continues creating this man, and does not make this man believe in him. So, we have a God who creates a being whom he knows is ultimately headed to eternal torment. Thus, we either have a God who is not omnipotent (does not have full control over the choice to create), a God who is not omniscient (cannot foresee the final outcome of his creation), or a God who is not benevolent (knowingly allows a creation of his to end up in eternal suffering). So either one of the traits has to go, or Hell doesn't exist. I cannot see a third way out of this.

    In fact, the more I looked at it, the more farcical this concept of God appeared to be. We have a God who creates humans for no apparent reason other than to worship himself. We know that on Earth, we are supposed to trust in God, pray to him, worship him and witness to non-believers. When we go to Heaven, we will be praising God forever. So, is the entire point of creation just to add to God's army of worshippers? Do humans go through all the pain and suffering, trials and tribulations just to end up as God's worshippers? And remember, some of these creations of God turn up in Hell, just because they didn't believe.

    The conclusion I arrived at was this: God was bored. He wanted some people to talk to him, he wanted some people to worship and depend on him for their lives' direction. Or perhaps he wanted a challenge - to see how many people would willingly believe in him and accept him as their Lord and Saviour without him exerting too much of his omnipotent powers to interfere with their free will. So it is all like a game to him. After all, what other explanation is there for creating humans? It certainly isn't for God's sake, because he doesn't need anything; and it certainly isn't for our sake, because if we weren't created, we wouldn't exist in the first place and thus wouldn't need anything either.

    Now let's take a look at the other highlight of the Bible - that of the Crucifixion. The Crucifixion has been touted as the zenith of selfless love and sacrifice. When I was a young kid, I, too, was moved by the account of Jesus suffering immense torment just to save us sinners who totally didn't deserve it at all. But when I applied the lenses of reason to this account, the shroud of mysticism evaporated away as well, and I was left with an account of sacrifice which I found unimpressive and even ridiculous.

    We must keep in mind that God is omnipotent and omniscient. Thus, he knew beforehand that even if he sent his son down to die on the cross, the suffering would only be temporary and in the end his son would be resurrected and rise to Heaven again. We must further keep in mind that everything was God's creation, and be it through his doing or his inertia, he allowed sin to corrupt humankind. Thus, he is ultimately accountable for all the sinfulness and corruption in the world - indeed, he knew beforehand that it would happen, or he would not be omniscient.

    Viewed in light of that, how is the Crucifixion anything spectacular at all? God knew that everything would work out alright for Jesus in the end. Also, it was not the case that God saved us through sheer grace and kindness of his; it was the case that not only did he allow humankind to fall to sin, he also created mankind with full knowledge that this would happen. In short, he was at least indirectly responsible for what was happening, and being the omniscient Creator, he was ultimately accountable for all of it.

    Take this scenario: A mother brings her kid to a place with a lot of traps and pitfalls, then allows the kid to roam freely in it, knowing full well that the kid was a mischievous one prone to accidents. And when as expected, the kid fell down and hurt himself, the mother sacrificed her time and money to treat the kid and nurse him back to health. Would you call this mother a gracious and kind mother? Would you praise her as the epitome of selflessness and love? Or would you deride her for exposing her child to danger in the first place, especially since she knew that the child would inevitably be hurt? And even if it wasn't the mother's fault at all that the child got hurt, wouldn't you say that as the mother who brought the child into the world, she is responsible for his well-being in the first place?

    Thus, in terms of grace or kindness, the Crucifixion was not really very impressive. Christians like to say "Oh we are so unworthy of Jesus' sacrifice", but they never stop to think: Who made us this way in the first place? Isn't God ultimately responsible for our unworthiness, for he was the one who created us and knew how we would turn out beforehand?

    Also, it is not the case that the Crucifixion was such a humongous sacrifice. I would contend that Jesus' sacrifice at the Cross pales in comparison to that of the soldier who is tortured to death refusing to reveal national secrets, or the mother who dies to save her children. The latter two died without being sure what would happen to them - whether they would go to Heaven or Hell, what would happen to their family, etc - whereas Jesus died knowing all would work out well in the end. It is comparatively easy to submit yourself to execution when you know you would be resurrected in three days.

    Among all the other reasons, the above are the main reasons why I have come to reject Christianity. It is not a mere thing about inaccuracies in the Bible or scientific findings which contradict Creationist accounts; it is that I find the entire account of the Creation, the Crucifixion and the concept of God farcical and unbelievable. As these doubts run right to the foundation and root of Christianity, I find myself no longer able to justify or explain them away. Unless something miraculous happens to convince me otherwise, I am afraid I cannot believe in Christianity anymore.

    Just a quick question, which one of the hundreds of crucified peoples (during roman rule) was jesus? How is his (sacrifice ) really that? Can anyone here actually prove that these miraculous events surrounding his death occured?

    The below text has been automerged with this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut View Post
    Trendy, God did not create sin
    Actually yes he did, for he created satan/ lucifer/ the devil etc.
    Secondly if your indeed saying that he didnt create sin than my question would be how can you than say he is ALL POWERFUL? Would this not mean that he is in fact powerless and requires adoration to gain power to defeat old satan?

    The below text has been automerged with this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut View Post
    In Gethsemene it is argued that Jesus was confronted by the full emotional awfullness and trauma of the 'sins, atrocities and transgressions' of all of humanity for all of time. It was this that made Him weep blood soaked tears.
    Have you ever seen someone die? Emotional trauma is normal, this does not prove that this person was god. As for weeping blood it is a scientific fact that during periods of intense stress people can and do bleed from their eyes, ears, mouth etc.
    No offense but others have been totured to this extreme, are they gods too? Or just charismatic good people that have had people in power afraid of them and as a result wish to kill them?

    The below text has been automerged with this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut View Post
    God does not want any 'Abdullahs'/'Slaves of Allah', what He wishes are willing disciples and acolytes.
    Actually the dumber the sheep (to use a christian term for christians) the easier it is to lead them!

    Ever seen a herd of sheep they are a perfect example of christians, muslims, hindus. Any serious issue can sway their mindsets and cause unrest. Groups of people in close proximity that believe similar things can be emotionally, psychologically PROGRAMMED to do, see or say just about anything. (once again its a scientific fact)

    Religions are based on the ability to easily lead large groups of people.

    The problem is not all people are so easily led.

    The below text has been automerged with this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop View Post
    Cheer up - there is always a chance that you'll embrace Christianity again. Either that or you might find Islam more appealing? ... or you can just pretend that God doesn't exist. Any way you choose it, it's all good.
    Or he could just be who HE wants to be and not do what others tell him too. (im agreeing)
    Last edited by wanxtrmBANNED; October 16th, 2006 at 08:26 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  10. #10
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    9,471
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why I am no longer a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Trendem View Post
    You misunderstand my argument. I am not saying that Jesus didn't suffer on the cross; I am saying that his suffering wasn't that great because he knew he would come out of it safe and well in the end. He knew the suffering was only temporary.
    Regardless of Jesus' knowledge that He would be resurrected, being lashed nearly unconscious, forced to haul a huge cross, being crucified and then voluntarily suffering in Hell for the sins of all mankind is no mere inconvenience. In fact, it is the greatest sacrifice ever made or that ever will be made.

  11. #11
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Santa Barbara, CA
    Posts
    1,252
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why I am no longer a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    ....and then voluntarily suffering in Hell for the sins of all mankind.......
    Jesus is in hell? What denomination do you belong to that has the doctrine of 'Jesus went to hell"?

    I thought that Christians had to believe that Jesus ascended all beatific and holy to sit at the right hand of YHWH himself?

    Have I been misinformed?

    If not, does this mean that I'll get to hang with the great man while roasting for eternity, and good Christians can only look at him through the viewing (gloating?) port?
    To begin to think is to begin to be undermined.
    Albert Camus, An Absurd Reasoning

    Who knows most, doubts most.
    Robert Browning

  12. #12
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Mesa, AZ
    Posts
    295
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why I am no longer a Christian

    Let me share a part of my view on it.
    First of all I think that Christianity is a beautiful religion, most are, but give enough power to anything and it gets a little out of hand.

    Anyways, God is perfect and trancends all thought, we can't understand him, we don't have the capacity. With God, everything is good. Everything else is a world of dualities. Life &death, right & wrong, male & female, even good & evil. These are not bad in the eyes of God, it is man that can not understand the harmony of things. The Buddhist agree that life is suffering, and it is. The pain and suffering are a gift that you can only find in life. We learn from it, it makes us wiser and smarter, and the ultimate lesson from it is to accccept it. Life, good or "bad," is beautiful. Learn to accept the good with the bad and you won't mind the bad so much, it actually makes life a lot nicer to live. If you're really good you won't mind it at all, but that's easier said than done if you're not God.

    The below text has been automerged with this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdPersonPlural View Post
    Jesus is in hell? What denomination do you belong to that has the doctrine of 'Jesus went to hell"?

    I thought that Christians had to believe that Jesus ascended all beatific and holy to sit at the right hand of YHWH himself?

    Have I been misinformed?

    If not, does this mean that I'll get to hang with the great man while roasting for eternity, and good Christians can only look at him through the viewing (gloating?) port?
    He went to hell to save the lost souls. I've read that he went for Adam himself to bring everyone to heaven. But it was voluntary.
    Last edited by Pasipo; October 16th, 2006 at 04:08 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    "Follow your bliss"- Joseph Campbell

    "The only thing that stays the same is that nothing stays the same"- Heraclitus

    "I hear and I forget
    I see and I remember
    I do and I understand"
    - Confucius

  13. #13
    I've been given a "timeout"

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Banville
    Posts
    4,160
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why I am no longer a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdPersonPlural View Post
    Jesus is in hell? What denomination do you belong to that has the doctrine of 'Jesus went to hell"?

    I thought that Christians had to believe that Jesus ascended all beatific and holy to sit at the right hand of YHWH himself?

    Have I been misinformed?

    If not, does this mean that I'll get to hang with the great man while roasting for eternity, and good Christians can only look at him through the viewing (gloating?) port?
    Per christian belief and biblical "truth" he did decend to hell and than was raised up to the right hand of "god".

  14. #14
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    9,471
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why I am no longer a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdPersonPlural View Post
    Jesus is in hell? What denomination do you belong to that has the doctrine of 'Jesus went to hell"?
    I'm an Episcopalian, but the belief in the harrowing of Hell [1], found in the earliest orthodox Christian creed, the Apostles' Creed [2], is shared by most of Christianity, including Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, western Orthodoxy and many branches of Protestantism.

    I thought that Christians had to believe that Jesus ascended all beatific and holy to sit at the right hand of YHWH himself?
    Correct. After Jesus died on the cross, suffered in Hell for our sins, and was bodily resurrected, He ascended into Heaven.

  15. #15
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Santa Barbara, CA
    Posts
    1,252
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why I am no longer a Christian

    After Jesus died on the cross, suffered in Hell for our sins, and was bodily resurrected, He ascended into Heaven.
    I think that the suffering in hell part is doctrine unto Kevin and no other.

    But that's cool. I scorn people who follow the superstitions of others just because they've been told to do so.

    You're striking out on your own, Kev! I haven't been more proud since this morning when my little stripling got an 'A' on his algebra test.
    To begin to think is to begin to be undermined.
    Albert Camus, An Absurd Reasoning

    Who knows most, doubts most.
    Robert Browning

  16. #16
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Mesa, AZ
    Posts
    295
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why I am no longer a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdPersonPlural View Post
    I think that the suffering in hell part is doctrine unto Kevin and no other.

    But that's cool. I scorn people who follow the superstitions of others just because they've been told to do so.

    You're striking out on your own, Kev! I haven't been more proud since this morning when my little stripling got an 'A' on his algebra test.
    That is not true. Above you will see that I, for the first time I think, know that KB is right. I've taken multiple religion and mythology courses, and in every one of them Jesus, by his own will, descends into hell to as a sacrifice save Adam and the rest of the souls trapped there from original sin. After his resurrection he ascends into heaven.

    I've seen KB warrant a taunt or two but you shouldn't do it without checking out the facts first.
    "Follow your bliss"- Joseph Campbell

    "The only thing that stays the same is that nothing stays the same"- Heraclitus

    "I hear and I forget
    I see and I remember
    I do and I understand"
    - Confucius

  17. #17
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    9,471
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why I am no longer a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdPersonPlural View Post
    I think that the suffering in hell part is doctrine unto Kevin and no other.
    Hmm. I suppose you have not yet mastered the art of clicking links. I will help you out and post the actual text of the Apostles' Creed.

    "I believe in God, the Father almighty,
    creator of heaven and earth.
    I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
    He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
    and born of the Virgin Mary.
    He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    was crucified, died, and was buried.
    He descended into hell.
    On the third day he rose again.
    He ascended into heaven
    and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
    I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    the holy catholic Church,
    the communion of saints,
    the forgiveness of sins,
    the resurrection of the body,
    and the life everlasting.
    Amen."

    If you have trouble finding the relevant part, please tell me and I will guide you in more detail.

  18. #18
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Santa Barbara, CA
    Posts
    1,252
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why I am no longer a Christian

    How come the versions I've encountered say he descended into 'death'

    Is this a translation issue?
    To begin to think is to begin to be undermined.
    Albert Camus, An Absurd Reasoning

    Who knows most, doubts most.
    Robert Browning

  19. #19
    I've been given a "timeout"

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Banville
    Posts
    4,160
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why I am no longer a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdPersonPlural View Post
    I think that the suffering in hell part is doctrine unto Kevin and no other.

    But that's cool. I scorn people who follow the superstitions of others just because they've been told to do so.

    You're striking out on your own, Kev! I haven't been more proud since this morning when my little stripling got an 'A' on his algebra test.

    ????????? am i now on ignore?

  20. #20
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Santa Barbara, CA
    Posts
    1,252
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Why I am no longer a Christian

    Like this:

    Modern English Version

    I believe in God, the Father almighty,
    creator of heaven and earth.

    I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
    who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
    born of the Virgin Mary,
    suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    was crucified, died, and was buried;
    he descended to the dead.
    On the third day he rose again;
    he ascended into heaven,
    he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
    and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

    I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    the holy catholic church,
    the communion of saints,
    the forgiveness of sins,
    the resurrection of the body,
    and the life everlasting. AMEN.

    The below text has been automerged with this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by wannaextreme View Post
    ????????? am i now on ignore?
    Nope, I'm on the phone and not paying much attention.

    Sorry.

    The below text has been automerged with this post.

    Here's the Greek. Who can translate?
    Πιστεύω εις Θεον Πατερα, παντοκράτορα, ποιητην ουρανου και γης.

    Και (εις) `Ιησουν Χριστον, υίον αυτου τον μονογενη, τον κύριον ήμων, τον συλληφθέντα εκ πνεύματοσ άγίου, γεννηθέντα εκ Μαρίας της παρθένου, παθόντα επι Ποντίου Πιλάτου, σταυρωθέντα, θανόντα, και ταφέντα, κατελθόντα εις τα κατώτατα, τη τρίτη `ημέρα `αναστάντα `απο των νεκρων, `ανελθόντα εις τους ουρανούς, καθεζόμενον εν δεξια θεου πατρος παντο δυνάμου, εκειθεν ερχόμενον κρϊναι ζωντας και νεκρούς.

    Πιστεύω εις το Πνυμα το `Αγιον, αγίαν καθολικην εκκλησίαν, αγίων κοινωνίαν, άφεσιν αμαρτιων, σαρκος ανάστασιν, ξωήν αιώνιον. Αμήν.
    Last edited by 3rdPersonPlural; October 16th, 2006 at 09:39 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    To begin to think is to begin to be undermined.
    Albert Camus, An Absurd Reasoning

    Who knows most, doubts most.
    Robert Browning

 

 
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. What is a True™ Christian?
    By Dionysus in forum Religion
    Replies: 204
    Last Post: January 16th, 2008, 04:04 PM
  2. What is a Christian?
    By Apokalupsis in forum Religion
    Replies: 145
    Last Post: March 16th, 2006, 03:01 PM
  3. Are they still Christian, ye or ne?
    By mustang5 in forum Religion
    Replies: 138
    Last Post: February 27th, 2006, 11:07 AM
  4. Founding Fathers: Christian Influenced? YES!
    By Apokalupsis in forum Politics
    Replies: 60
    Last Post: August 21st, 2004, 09:24 AM
  5. Proof that the Christian God Does Not Exist
    By Booger in forum Religion
    Replies: 103
    Last Post: July 20th, 2004, 12:54 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •