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Thread: Allahu akbar?

  1. #1
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    Allahu akbar?

    I just watched the video of the Iraqi terrorists beheading an American prisoner. It did not show the actual execution, but it showed them reading a statement and then pulling out a sword. Right before they pulled out the sword, one of the masked terrorists yelled out "Allahu akbar!," Arabic for "God is great." How does murder, especially as an act of cold-blooded revenge for American troops abusing Iraqi prisoners, glorify God, or testify to His greatness? I would like to see the America-bashing liberals try to defend this barbarism, disguised as God's will.
    Last edited by KevinBrowning; May 11th, 2004 at 02:09 PM. Reason: Capitalization.

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    Well...for one..."American-bashing liberals" don't believe in God (j/k ) ...so they won't offer a defense for it in the manner in which you have tried to define it. Furthermore, it would seem as if you are mixing up 2 issues, one of which through an inferred proposition...

    1) Muslim extremists commit such acts through sincere belief that it is right. So how does this act glorify God?

    2) Liberals (specifically the American-bashing sort (or subset of)) defend such actions...and defend them on a theological basis. So...what is this defense?

    #1 is fine. #2 is faulty. I think you can see how.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    Well...for one..."American-bashing liberals" don't believe in God (j/k ) ...so they won't offer a defense for it in the manner in which you have tried to define it. Furthermore, it would seem as if you are mixing up 2 issues, one of which through an inferred proposition...

    1) Muslim extremists commit such acts through sincere belief that it is right. So how does this act glorify God?

    2) Liberals (specifically the American-bashing sort (or subset of)) defend such actions...and defend them on a theological basis. So...what is this defense?

    #1 is fine. #2 is faulty. I think you can see how.
    What I am saying is that by a terrorist yelling out "God is great!" right before they kill a helpless prisoner, he is implying that God approves of and even condones that cruel act. That is ludicrous and indefensible, whether one believes in God or not.
    Last edited by KevinBrowning; May 11th, 2004 at 02:17 PM. Reason: Grammar.

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    OK, so we can remove the variable of "needing to believe in a God".

    However, now we have to deal w/ this event being condoned by American-bashing liberals. I do not think that is accurate. One doesn't have to agree with B simply because they disagree with A, which is what you have setup.

    I think the question should just be phrased as follows:

    The terrorist's act of yelling out "God is great!" right before they kill a helpless prisoner implies that God approves of and even condones this cruel act. What is the argument in support of this act? Is there a sound argument that can 1) defend such a belief, and/or 2) excuse the action due to that belief?

    But then...that's just my opinion.
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  5. #5
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    Any evocation of God during war is bollocks.
    ~ le prime di di mont la vacja no fas formadi ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    OK, so we can remove the variable of "needing to believe in a God".

    However, now we have to deal w/ this event being condoned by American-bashing liberals. I do not think that is accurate. One doesn't have to agree with B simply because they disagree with A, which is what you have setup.

    I think the question should just be phrased as follows:


    The terrorist's act of yelling out "God is great!" right before they kill a helpless prisoner implies that God approves of and even condones this cruel act. What is the argument in support of this act? Is there a sound argument that can 1) defend such a belief, and/or 2) excuse the action due to that belief?

    But then...that's just my opinion.
    True enough, but most atheist America-bashing liberals are going to retort with some lame excuse of how those masked executioners were oppressed or forced to kill that American, even if they do not believe in the God those terrorists are yelling is great, and then honoring by slaying a defenseless man.

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    Kevin, the only objection was to the wording of the query. What it had done, was set it up so that 1) all america-bashing liberals must believe it is acceptable, and 2) that if anyone did defend it, then they were an america-bashing liberal. It was trying to identify the response with a group of people, instead of sincerely going for a valid response, and leaving it at that. I think you'll find more of a response in a more careful and unprovoking query. It isn't always easy to do of course, and I'm just as guilty as the next poster for setting up the argument in this manner. But I really think you'll get more of a response by allowing the reader to digest the actual argument itself, instead of having to accept an identification of a group that believes X.

    Quote Originally Posted by sjjs
    Any evocation of God during war is bollocks.
    1) As opposed to any evocation of God not during war being legitimate?
    2) Is proclaiming "God is great" evoking God? Do you believe those who make this statement believe it is evoking a deity? Or is it rather merely a statement of faith by the subject?
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    Kevin, the only objection was to the wording of the query. What it had done, was set it up so that 1) all america-bashing liberals must believe it is acceptable, and 2) that if anyone did defend it, then they were an america-bashing liberal. It was trying to identify the response with a group of people, instead of sincerely going for a valid response, and leaving it at that. I think you'll find more of a response in a more careful and unprovoking query. It isn't always easy to do of course, and I'm just as guilty as the next poster for setting up the argument in this manner. But I really think you'll get more of a response by allowing the reader to digest the actual argument itself, instead of having to accept an identification of a group that believes X.


    1) As opposed to any evocation of God not during war being legitimate?
    2) Is proclaiming "God is great" evoking God? Do you believe those who make this statement believe it is evoking a deity? Or is it rather merely a statement of faith by the subject?
    Point taken. I was just anticipating that some of the members on this board would try to defend those actions, and they would likely be America-bashers and liberals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    1) As opposed to any evocation of God not during war being legitimate?
    2) Is proclaiming "God is great" evoking God? Do you believe those who make this statement believe it is evoking a deity? Or is it rather merely a statement of faith by the subject?
    On a personal level I believe any evocation of God is rubbish but I do accept that others will have different opinions and they're welcome to evoke God in the privacy of their own home if they so wish.

    The pronouncement that "God is Great" implies that what is being done is being done in God's name; during war this is bollocks as I previously said.

    Why? Because both sides are strutting around claiming that God is on their side and they cannot lose because God is with them. Plainly false since one side will lose and no matter how hard one believes in God it's still possible to get a bullet through the head.

    Even if one believes in God, it's plain to see that he neither protects nor shows favours in times of war.
    ~ le prime di di mont la vacja no fas formadi ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by sjjs
    On a personal level I believe any evocation of God is rubbish but I do accept that others will have different opinions and they're welcome to evoke God in the privacy of their own home if they so wish.

    The pronouncement that "God is Great" implies that what is being done is being done in God's name; during war this is bollocks as I previously said.

    Why? Because both sides are strutting around claiming that God is on their side and they cannot lose because God is with them. Plainly false since one side will lose and no matter how hard one believes in God it's still possible to get a bullet through the head.

    Even if one believes in God, it's plain to see that he neither protects nor shows favours in times of war.
    OK, but I think that God approves of America liberating an oppressed people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning
    Point taken. I was just anticipating that some of the members on this board would try to defend those actions, and they would likely be America-bashers and liberals.
    Why the complex? Why is anyone who criticises a certain aspect of America deemed to be an America basher?

    It is more complex than you perhaps think and plainly not black and white as you might imagine.

    I admit that there are certain aspects of America which I will readily complain about. Does that make me an America basher?

    If it does then how does that square with those aspects of America which I would find worthy and readily impressive?

    And I am not alone. Millions of people around the world like some aspects of America for some reasons and dislike other aspects of America. You can't categorize them into a simple love/hate dichotomy; it's a continuum so blandly painting people who disagree with some aspects of America is rather naive.

    By the way, I love the way Americans try to make liberal sound like an insult. It ranks alongside "take a long walk off a short pier" in the book of snappy and powerful put-downs.
    Last edited by sjjs; May 11th, 2004 at 03:04 PM. Reason: suspect syntax
    ~ le prime di di mont la vacja no fas formadi ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning
    OK, but I think that God approves of America liberating an oppressed people.
    If I believed in him I don't think he would approve of what America is doing.

    Therefore: stalemate.
    ~ le prime di di mont la vacja no fas formadi ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning
    True enough, but most atheist America-bashing liberals are going to retort with some lame excuse of how those masked executioners were oppressed or forced to kill that American, even if they do not believe in the God those terrorists are yelling is great, and then honoring by slaying a defenseless man.
    KB...I'm an atheist liberal and I'll speak for my subgroup when I say that the contention that any liberal would condone the decapitation of an innocent man by terrorists is, once again, nothing more than constant conservative lie that liberals who are against the Bush administration and against the war in Iraq somehow are "America-bashers" and hate this country. It's old and intellectually worthless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sjjs
    Any evocation of God during war is bollocks.
    When people are dying there are typically two things last on their minds --

    1.) Their Mother or their spouse and children

    2.) God.

    Evoking God when one is dying or praying for their life is not Bollocks.
    Last edited by Spartacus; May 11th, 2004 at 08:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Booger
    KB...I'm an atheist liberal and I'll speak for my subgroup when I say that the contention that any liberal would condone the decapitation of an innocent man by terrorists is.....
    Condone dear Booger?...oh no not condone...

    This latest snuff film right of Iraq is directed right at you and people who think like you...It was done for all the America-bashing liberal voting public....

    The terrorists know that there are many Americans who have no resolve...who are infidels and worship their comfort and depravity above all else. As they did with Spain, they want to terrorize, frighten and intimidate Americans. So long as America has a willing and vocal audience who seem susecptible to such horrors...it will continue. Go ahead vote for John Kerry just like they want you to.

    This won't be the last time though...so long as America has a large,vocal "subset" that is weakened by fear...American innocents will be targetted.


    I am curious though...during Viet Nam many American Liberals went and visited North VietNam. If this war is just like Viet Nam why don't we see these same weenies going to Iraq and Afghanistan and "rappin" with the "Jihadists?"

    If US military action is not the answer then why don't we see diplomatic delegations involved? Why isn't Jessie Jackson goig over there and trying to "reason" with them? Why can't the UN send an envoy and broker a peace deal...after all they did not support our invasion of Iraq?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning
    OK, but I think that God approves of America liberating an oppressed people.
    And they think their God supports them killing the same people who are liberating them. How do you respond to that?
    "The essential act of war is destruction, not necessarily of human lives, but of the products of human labour. War is a way of shattering to pieces, or pouring into the stratosphere, or sinking in the depths of the sea, materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable, and hence, in the long run, too intelligent." 1984, By George Orwell. Part 2: Chapter 9.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KneeLess
    And they think their God supports them killing the same people who are liberating them. How do you respond to that?


    Every tree needs to be judged by its fruit....

    Untrained low level soldiers "humiliate" Iraqi prisoners....WHat happens? They are going to be tried and punished.

    The terrorist response ---

    DO they "humiliate" American prisoners? No, they cut off their heads and display their brutality for all the world?

    Can anyone quote me the Koranic verse where it says that if your enemy puts women's panties on your head...you chop off their heads in retribution? I must have missed that one.

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    So long as America has a willing and vocal audience who seem susecptible to such horrors...it will continue
    What's the more effective solution? Just go over there and kill everyone we see? Stay here and shutup about all of it? The invasion doesn't quite seem to have solved the problem, and occupation doesn't appear to be faring any better. So what should we do? If they want to kill, they're going to kill. If they want to brutalize and call it in the name of god, they're going to do so.
    Judge of a man by his questions rather than by his answers.--Voltaire

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    What the hell is an "America basher"?

    And who are they on this site?

    I mean, who is really giving Americans a bad name?

    I would not call Spartacus an "America basher", yet none the less...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus
    When people are dying there are typically two things last on their minds --

    1.) Their Mother or their wife and children

    2.) God.

    Evoking God when one is dying or paraying for their life is not Bollocks.
    Evoking God as an excuse for your actions and claiming that he is on your side over your opponent's is rather silly and arrogant, so I'd agree with sjjs, because in most religions, God's (gods') motives are unfathomable by humans and it is ridiculous to think that we can know which side he supports if any. However, it is not a crime or sin to think of God during a war.
    The terrorists know that there are many Americans who have no resolve...who are infidels and worship their comfort and depravity above all else.
    I think that you don't understand the position of most liberals. I feel that an effective war against terrorism should use covert action as well as overt action, and that overt action, when overused, is counterproductive. The Iraq war has added fodder to bin Laden's propaganda scheme. If we didn't confirm half of what he spews in the minds of right-wing islamists, we might have a more viable war on terror.
    Since Al-Qaida has a cell system, taking on one cell does not mean that the other cells will weaken. They are mainly independent of each other, which is why infiltration of their ranks would be much more effective in eliminating terrorists. However, that would take a great deal of effort and would take time, and if they do a good job, we won't know about it until they're done, which means that they could be using covert opperations right now.
    Also, I don't know any America-bashing liberals. I do know some Bush-bashing liberals, but no one who bashes America.
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