Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 57
  1. #1
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    9,470
    Post Thanks / Like

    Welfare vs. Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Yahoo

    By STEPHEN OHLEMACHER, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 51 minutes ago

    WASHINGTON - The welfare state is bigger than ever despite a decade of policies designed to wean poor people from public aid.
    ADVERTISEMENT

    The number of families receiving cash benefits from welfare has plummeted since the government imposed time limits on the payments a decade ago. But other programs for the poor, including Medicaid, food stamps and disability benefits, are bursting with new enrollees.

    The result, according to an Associated Press analysis: Nearly one in six people rely on some form of public assistance, a larger share than at any time since the government started measuring two decades ago.

    Critics of the welfare overhaul say the numbers offer fresh evidence that few former recipients have become self-sufficient, even though millions have moved from welfare to work. They say the vast majority have been forced into low-paying jobs without benefits and few opportunities to advance.

    "If the goal of welfare reform was to get people off the welfare rolls, bravo," said Vivyan Adair, a former welfare recipient who is now an assistant professor of women's studies at Hamilton College in upstate New York. "If the goal was to reduce poverty and give people economic and job stability, it was not a success."

    Proponents of the changes in welfare say programs that once discouraged work now offer support to people in low-paying jobs. They point to expanded eligibility rules for food stamps and Medicaid, the health insurance program for the poor, that enable people to keep getting benefits even after they start working.

    "I don't have any problems with those programs growing, and indeed, they were intended to grow," said Ron Haskins, a former adviser to
    President Bush on welfare policy.

    "We've taken the step of getting way more people into the labor force and they have taken a huge step toward self-sufficiency. What is the other choice?" he asked.

    In the early 1990s, critics contended the welfare system encouraged unemployment and promoted single-parent families. Welfare recipients, mostly single mothers, could lose benefits if they earned too much money or if they lived with the father of their children.

    Major changes in welfare were enacted in 1996, requiring most recipients to work but allowing them to continue some benefits after they started jobs. The law imposed a five-year limit on cash payments for most people in the Temporary Assistance for Needy Families program, or TANF. Some states have shorter time limits.

    Nia Foster fits the pattern of dependence on government programs. She stopped getting cash welfare payments in the late 1990s and has moved from one clerical job to another. None provided medical benefits.

    The 32-year-old mother of two from Cincinnati said she supports her family with help from food stamps and Medicaid.

    Foster said she did not get any job training when she left welfare. She earned her high-school equivalency last year at a community college.

    "If you want to get educated or want to succeed, the welfare office don't care," Foster said. "I don't think they really care what you do once the benefits are gone."

    Foster now works in a tax office, a seasonal job that will end after April 15. She hopes to enroll at the University of Cincinnati this spring and would like to study accounting. She is waiting to find out if she qualifies for enough financial aid to cover tuition.

    "I like data processing, something where it's a bunch of invoices and you have to key them in," Foster said. "I want to be an accountant so bad."

    Shannon Stanfield took a different, less-traveled path from welfare, thanks to a generous program that offered her a chance to get a college education.

    Stanfield, 36, was cleaning houses to support her two young children four years ago when she learned about a program for welfare recipients at nearby Hamilton College, a private liberal arts school in Clinton, N.Y.

    "At the time I was living in a pretty run-down apartment," said Stanfield, who was getting welfare payments, Medicaid and food stamps. "It wasn't healthy."

    The program, called the Access Project, accepts about 25 welfare-eligible parents a year. Hamilton waives tuition for first-year students and the program supplements financial aid in later years. Students get a host of social and career services, including help finding internships and jobs and financial assistance in times of crisis.

    About 140 former welfare recipients have completed the program and none still relies on government programs for the poor, said Adair, the Hamilton professor who started the Access Project in 2001.

    Stanfield, who still gets Medicaid and food stamps, plans to graduate in May with a bachelor's degree in theater. She wants to be a teacher.

    "I slowly built up my confidence through education," Stanfield said. "I can't honestly tell you how much it has changed my life."

    Programs such as the Access Project are not cheap, which is one reason they are rare. Tuition and fees run about $35,000 a year at Hamilton, and the program's annual budget is between $250,000 and $500,000, Adair said.

    In 2005, about 5.1 million people received monthly welfare payments from TANF and similar state programs, a 60 percent drop from a decade before.

    But other government programs grew, offsetting the declines.

    About 44 million people nearly one in six in the country relied on government services for the poor in 2003, according to the most recent statistics compiled by the
    Census Bureau. That compares with about 39 million in 1996.

    Also, the number of people getting government aid continues to increase, according to more recent enrollment figures from individual programs.

    Medicaid rolls alone topped 45 million people in 2005, pushed up in part by rising health care costs and fewer employers offering benefits. Nearly 26 million people a month received food stamps that year.

    Cash welfare recipients, by comparison, peaked at 14.2 million people in 1994.

    There is much debate over whether those leaving welfare for work should be offered more opportunities for training and education, so they do not have to settle for low-paying jobs that keep them dependent on government programs.

    "We said get a job, any job," said Rep. Jim McDermott (news, bio, voting record), chairman of the House subcommittee that oversees welfare issues. "And now we expect them to be making it on these minimum-wage jobs."

    McDermott, D-Wash., said stricter work requirements enacted last year, when Congress renewed the welfare overhaul law, will make it even more difficult for welfare recipients to get sufficient training to land good-paying jobs.

    But people who support the welfare changes say former recipients often fare better economically if they start working, even in low-paying jobs, before entering education programs.

    "What many people on TANF need first is the confidence that they can succeed in the workplace and to develop the habits of work," said Wade Horn, the Bush administration's point man on welfare overhaul.

    "Also, many TANF recipients didn't have a lot of success in the classroom," Horn said. "If you want to improve the confidence of a TANF recipient, putting them in the classroom, where they failed in the past, that is not likely to increase their confidence."

    Horn noted that employment among poor single mothers is up and child poverty rates are down since the welfare changes in 1996, though the numbers have worsened since the start of the decade.

    Horn, however, said he would like to see local welfare agencies provide more education and training to people who have already moved from welfare to work.

    "I think more attention has to be paid to helping those families move up the income scale, increasing their independence of other government welfare programs," Horn said.

    "The true goal of welfare to work programs should be self-sufficiency."
    This makes little sense. Some of these people seem to be saying that it is better for people to be on welfare than to be in minimum-wage jobs. It is obvious that higher employment is better. There will always be a spectrum of salaries.

    Not everyone can be in the middle class, even though more people than ever are. Once again, it seems people do not understand that poverty can only be minimized, not eliminated. It is not a failure when people move from welfare to a low-paying job. Any job is better than no job.

  2. #2
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,547
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Welfare vs. Minimum Wage

    How about neither welfare OR minimum wage. They both do the same thing...make society worse off.
    "If you wish to know how libertarians regard the State and any of its acts, simply think of the State as a criminal band, and all of the libertarian attitudes will logically fall into place." -Murray Rothbard

    "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau

  3. #3
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Wilkes Barre, PA
    Posts
    11
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Welfare vs. Minimum Wage

    At least if you work minimum wage you are actually working. I make minimum wage and at least I contribute to society instead of mooching of the Government.
    The most rigid trees are the first to be snapped in the wind.

  4. #4
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,547
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Welfare vs. Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by thor123 View Post
    At least if you work minimum wage you are actually working. I make minimum wage and at least I contribute to society instead of mooching of the Government.
    Well the problem is that you aren't contributing to society is a way that voluntary transaction wold have you contribute. The greatest way to benefit society is by abolishing both the minimum wage AND welfare...this way not only would employment increase, but after the natural wage rate equilibrates, real wages will rise due to an increase in production which would lead to an increase in each worker's marginal utility which would cause their nominal wages to rise as well.
    "If you wish to know how libertarians regard the State and any of its acts, simply think of the State as a criminal band, and all of the libertarian attitudes will logically fall into place." -Murray Rothbard

    "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau

  5. #5
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,156
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Welfare vs. Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    This makes little sense. Some of these people seem to be saying that it is better for people to be on welfare than to be in minimum-wage jobs. It is obvious that higher employment is better. There will always be a spectrum of salaries.

    Not everyone can be in the middle class, even though more people than ever are. Once again, it seems people do not understand that poverty can only be minimized, not eliminated. It is not a failure when people move from welfare to a low-paying job. Any job is better than no job.
    I agree. The purpose of welfare is to create more self-sustaining citizens and compensate for factors beyond peoples' control leading to poverty, not to act as a means of permanent support.
    [CENTER]-=] Starcreator [=-

  6. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    the sun
    Posts
    51
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Welfare vs. Minimum Wage

    Welfare originated from the Great Depression so people could buy food and other basic necessities. It is no different today, yet some people assert that low paying jobs are more effective than welfare. I disagree because welfare helps minorites and low paying jobs doesn't.

    Welfare gives money to the elderly who can't have jobs. Companies, like McDonalds, prefer younger employees who have more energy and can work for a longer time. The elderly simply do not have enough physical ability for demanding labor like construction or janitorial work. Welfare does not demand the elderly to do any labor at all.

    Disabled people rely on welfare for a living. Like the elderly, people stuck on wheel chairs or mentally retarded are not capable of earning money as the youth. They cannot perform a majority of the work, such as waitressing or accounting, because these jobs require movement and complex mental processes. For many, welfare is the only source of money and without it, they cannot pay for wheel chairs or stay in mental hospitals.

    Welfare aids racial minorities who are discriminated in work. Many people refuse to employ Asians, Blacks, or Hispanics because of racism. Welfare, however, is not subject to racism. The government does not consider race when deciding to give out welfare.

    Welfare helps those who are disadvantaged in work. Low paying jobs are not always available to the elderly, disabled, or racial minorities. Welfare is the only source of income for these people and the only hope out of poverty.
    There is no TRY. Only DO ~YODA

  7. #7
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    3,795
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Welfare vs. Minimum Wage

    The above translates to "Welfare gives people who can't get jobs money". But that's not a good thing. Subsidizing unemployment, rewarding failure, is not by any stretch of the imagination a goal to be aimed for.
    Freedom is you choosing for yourself. Law is the government choosing for you. The two are opposites.

    Pray - To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce
    Faith - Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge about things without parallel - Ambrose Bierce

  8. #8
    I've been given a "timeout"

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Who are you? Why are you asking me this?
    Posts
    4,064
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Welfare vs. Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    The above translates to "Welfare gives people who can't get jobs money". But that's not a good thing. Subsidizing unemployment, rewarding failure, is not by any stretch of the imagination a goal to be aimed for.
    The issue shows a disgusting side of human nature. I used to live in an apartment building with dozens of mutli-child single mothers, all on welfare. The fathers weren't around more then a few months per kid, and for the rest of those childs lives, the mother gets to live on easy street.
    It seems we cannot reject the parasites without crushing the people. I mean, how do you tell someone their flagrant abuse of a system designed for the misfortunate is an underlying socetial evil, without them turning on you about how "strong" they are to survive in the world? Better yet, how do you kick someone like that off welfare, with no skill sets, expeirence, and frankly questionable personal hygiene.
    Do we let the children starve?

    I can't really see a way out of it. Short of a genocide, this problem will continue indefinetly.

  9. #9
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    3,795
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Welfare vs. Minimum Wage

    Turtleflipper:
    IMO, the closest thing to a solution would be the following:
    1) Welfare ought not to be automatically handed out, but given to those who are actually trying to improve their lot in life. The purpose of welfare ought not to be to sustain parasites, but to give people a small safety net from bad breaks. Along with that, welfare ought to last maybe a year per person, maximum (or some time limit like that)

    2) Regarding kids: If the parent(s) can take care of them, fine. If not, adoption/orphanages. And that is a cause that I can justify sending welfare money to.
    Freedom is you choosing for yourself. Law is the government choosing for you. The two are opposites.

    Pray - To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce
    Faith - Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge about things without parallel - Ambrose Bierce

  10. #10
    I've been given a "timeout"

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Who are you? Why are you asking me this?
    Posts
    4,064
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Welfare vs. Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Turtleflipper:
    1) Welfare ought not to be automatically handed out, but given to those who are actually trying to improve their lot in life. The purpose of welfare ought not to be to sustain parasites, but to give people a small safety net from bad breaks. Along with that, welfare ought to last maybe a year per person, maximum (or some time limit like that)
    The problem here is homeless rates skyrocket. And people in NA aren't yet capable of allowing individuals to suffer the fate of their laziness.
    As evidence, consider one never hears the number of working homeless vs. lazy contancrious homeless, it's all just homeless people. As though both are equally worthy of aid


    Quote Originally Posted by caste
    2) Regarding kids: If the parent(s) can take care of them, fine. If not, adoption/orphanages. And that is a cause that I can justify sending welfare money to.
    So because one cannot afford a child one must give it up?
    No, once again, NA is not ready to accept a mother loosing her child under any circumstances. Regardless of benefit to both, and net soceital benefit. This is not a policy of logic. It is one of emotion. And screaming mothers simply have more (emotion)




    Basically, these people vote. And in democracy, it's not the smartest, or most able, who make the rules. So it's extremely unlikely welfare will be revoked any time soon, or lowered to any serious degree.

  11. #11
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    3,795
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Welfare vs. Minimum Wage

    Turtleflipper:
    True enough. That's the bad thing about democracy. It'd still work, though. Btw, what is "NA"?
    Freedom is you choosing for yourself. Law is the government choosing for you. The two are opposites.

    Pray - To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce
    Faith - Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge about things without parallel - Ambrose Bierce

  12. #12
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Wilkes Barre, PA
    Posts
    11
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Welfare vs. Minimum Wage

    Dr. Gonzo, if there wasn't a minimum wage why would I pay $5.50 if I could pay them $3? Strikes would occur and the economy might crash. And if one company still offers $5.50 the majority of people would work for them. Other companies would go out of business and we would end up with more monopolies. Let's stick to minimum wage.
    The most rigid trees are the first to be snapped in the wind.

  13. #13
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    3,795
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Welfare vs. Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by thor123
    Dr. Gonzo, if there wasn't a minimum wage why would I pay $5.50 if I could pay them $3?
    Quote Originally Posted by thor123
    Strikes would occur
    Quote Originally Posted by thor123
    if one company still offers $5.50 the majority of people would work for them.
    Well, I guess you get points for answering your own question
    Freedom is you choosing for yourself. Law is the government choosing for you. The two are opposites.

    Pray - To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce
    Faith - Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge about things without parallel - Ambrose Bierce

  14. #14
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,547
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Welfare vs. Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by thor123 View Post
    Dr. Gonzo, if there wasn't a minimum wage why would I pay $5.50 if I could pay them $3? Strikes would occur and the economy might crash. And if one company still offers $5.50 the majority of people would work for them. Other companies would go out of business and we would end up with more monopolies. Let's stick to minimum wage.
    I gotta say that Castle hit the nail on the head.

    A couple of other points:

    1) Marginal utility raises the value of labor (i.e. wages)
    2) An increase in the production of good raises real wages...in other words 10 dollars in an economy producing things at 2X price is less valuable than 10 dollars in an economy producing things at X price.
    3) Unions don't raise wages
    4) Companies and individuals would find the natural wage rate and without government distorted price floors, there would be much less unemployment.
    "If you wish to know how libertarians regard the State and any of its acts, simply think of the State as a criminal band, and all of the libertarian attitudes will logically fall into place." -Murray Rothbard

    "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau

  15. #15
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Cleveland, or parts thereof
    Posts
    831
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Welfare vs. Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo
    3) Unions don't raise wages
    THANK YOU!!!!
    What is it like to be Libertarian and an Atheist? Imagine having the freedom to believe whatever you want, without the responsibility of it ever becoming accepted in the majority.

    It's a truly magical feeling. Equal parts happiness and depression.

  16. #16
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    334
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Welfare vs. Minimum Wage

    dr gonzo
    An increase in the production of good raises real wages.
    What check and balances would there be to assure this outcome
    I look at mcdonald's for example ,it recorded increase in profits over a few years running but no increase in wages for frontline workers.
    However shareholders and franchise owners did have increase in dividends/profit share.
    The directors of large enterprises are responsible to the shareholders first and the workers if at all ,last


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    turtleflipper
    Short of a genocide, this problem will continue indefinetly.
    This is not a policy of logic. It is one of emotion. And screaming mothers simply have more (emotion)
    castle]
    Regarding kids: If the parent(s) can take care of them, fine. If not, adoption/orphanages. And that is a cause that I can justify sending welfare money to.
    You two are having some kind of in joke right.
    Do you really propose a nazi "final solution" to solve the problem of single parents.
    Your prepared to steal babies from their mother just so you can pay a bit less tax.
    Do either of you have children and even the remotest idea of the bond that forms between parent and child or the anguish that can be created by such a proposal.
    In this economic paradise you are creating is there any room for a social concience?
    And why do you seem to put all the blame on the woman, absolutly no mention of the father except that he's there long enough to impregnate the woman.
    What is his responsibility and how is it ensured that he carries out his resposibility.

    turtleflipper
    Regardless of benefit to both, and net soceital benefit.
    Please explain what these net benefits might be and especially social benefits considering main stream belief is for children to be raised by natural parent where possible and the psychological damage caused by seperation can impare a person for life.
    The "disgusting side of human nature." would be the statements both of you have made here.
    And sorry if that offends ,but I truly find such attitudes to be chauvinistic, ignorant and most offensive
    Last edited by noman; March 27th, 2007 at 09:31 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  17. #17
    I've been given a "timeout"

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Who are you? Why are you asking me this?
    Posts
    4,064
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Welfare vs. Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by noman View Post
    You two are having some kind of in joke right.
    Do you really propose a nazi "final solution" to solve the problem of single parents.
    They're fat, and they'll burn. Really, the problems of welfare families, and the decreasing amount of gasoline avaliable are easily solved by each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by noman View Post
    Your prepared to steal babies from their mother just so you can pay a bit less tax.
    It's more people shouldn't be able to get a free ride through life because they were stupid enough to get pregnant

    Quote Originally Posted by noman View Post
    Do either of you have children and even the remotest idea of the bond that forms between parent and child or the anguish that can be created by such a proposal.
    Do you have any idea how infurating it is to know the majority of people around you will do dick all to contribute to society?
    That as corpses, they're more useful to everyone?


    Quote Originally Posted by noman View Post
    In this economic paradise you are creating is there any room for a social concience?
    And why do you seem to put all the blame on the woman, absolutly no mention of the father except that he's there long enough to impregnate the woman.
    Because for him it was a few nights-stand. Not a life-long commiment he agreed to. As for social concience, they are theives. Plain and simple. They've done nothing, but get money.
    Rewarding laziness is a dangerous way to run a country

    Quote Originally Posted by noman View Post
    What is his responsibility and how is it ensured that he carries out his resposibility.
    Considering he never agreed, and the women could've gotten an abortion? Zippo


    Quote Originally Posted by noman View Post
    Please explain what these net benefits might be and especially social benefits considering main stream belief is for children to be raised by natural parent where possible and the psychological damage caused by seperation can impare a person for life.
    Infants can be easily seperated from their parents. They'll adapt. The mother can eat a shoe, so long as she's on welfare, she gets no children.
    Social benefits include- more money for the dying healthcare system, more incentive to find work, less incentive to have children and increase the population load


    Quote Originally Posted by noman View Post
    The "disgusting side of human nature." would be the statements both of you have made here.
    And sorry if that offends ,but I truly find such attitudes to be chauvinistic, ignorant and most offensive
    I'd steal your baby if I could find him

  18. #18
    ODN Administrator

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Rural Southern Indiana
    Posts
    5,285
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Welfare vs. Minimum Wage

    God, here we go again on the wellfare crap that you people seem to not have a clue about... (not aimed at Noman)

    For reference, Turtle, before I go off on this rant, what was the timeframe you happened to live around these women you speak so highly of? I'm looking for years here, specifically before or after 1996-1998...
    "And that, my lord, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped." ~ Monty Python


  19. #19
    I've been given a "timeout"

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Who are you? Why are you asking me this?
    Posts
    4,064
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Welfare vs. Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by ladyphoenix View Post
    God, here we go again on the wellfare crap that you people seem to not have a clue about... (not aimed at Noman)

    For reference, Turtle, before I go off on this rant, what was the timeframe you happened to live around these women you speak so highly of? I'm looking for years here, specifically before or after 1996-1998...
    2000-2002
    That apartment sucked hardcore

  20. #20
    ODN Administrator

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Rural Southern Indiana
    Posts
    5,285
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Welfare vs. Minimum Wage

    One more question, which state?
    "And that, my lord, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped." ~ Monty Python


 

 
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Minimum Wage Hike?
    By market state in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: December 7th, 2006, 09:02 PM
  2. Replies: 72
    Last Post: November 7th, 2006, 09:01 PM
  3. Minimum Wage
    By Dr. Gonzo in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: September 14th, 2006, 06:27 PM
  4. A Poll for Socialists
    By emtee10 in forum General Debate
    Replies: 79
    Last Post: May 22nd, 2006, 02:01 PM
  5. Minimum Wage
    By emtee10 in forum General Debate
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: October 22nd, 2004, 07:18 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •