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Thread: Evolution?

  1. #1
    khonline
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    Question Evolution?

    If someone started a debate on evolution would anyone be wiling to join?

  2. #2
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    Re: Evolution?

    Consider it begun!

    Welcome to ODN.

    I take it you support K. Hovind's position? Do you consider yourself a young earth creationist? Please detail your argument against evolution / for creationism (or what have you).

  3. #3
    khonline
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    Re: Evolution?

    Thanks for the welcome And yes, I do support Hovind. Earth Creasionist? explain yourself there.

    My arguement(s):

    *earth is NOT millions of years old
    *abortion IS murder and they ought to make it illegal
    *dinoausers have lived and still live with man
    *text books have to be acurate with current and confermed reaserch

    and tons more. how about the first one? 'Earth is NOT millions of years old'?

  4. #4
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    Re: Evolution?

    Well, I agree with you that the Earth isn't Millions of years old: it's billions.

    he generally accepted age for the Earth and the rest of the solar system is about 4.55 billion years (plus or minus about 1%). This value is derived from several different lines of evidence.

    Unfortunately, the age cannot be computed directly from material that is solely from the Earth. There is evidence that energy from the Earth's accumulation caused the surface to be molten. Further, the processes of erosion and crustal recycling have apparently destroyed all of the earliest surface.

    The oldest rocks which have been found so far (on the Earth) date to about 3.8 to 3.9 billion years ago (by several radiometric dating methods). Some of these rocks are sedimentary, and include minerals which are themselves as old as 4.1 to 4.2 billion years. Rocks of this age are relatively rare, however rocks that are at least 3.5 billion years in age have been found on North America, Greenland, Australia, Africa, and Asia.

    While these values do not compute an age for the Earth, they do establish a lower limit (the Earth must be at least as old as any formation on it). This lower limit is at least concordant with the independently derived figure of 4.55 billion years for the Earth's actual age.

    The most direct means for calculating the Earth's age is a Pb/Pb isochron age, derived from samples of the Earth and meteorites. This involves measurement of three isotopes of lead (Pb-206, Pb-207, and either Pb-208 or Pb-204). A plot is constructed of Pb-206/Pb-204 versus Pb-207/Pb-204.

    If the solar system formed from a common pool of matter, which was uniformly distributed in terms of Pb isotope ratios, then the initial plots for all objects from that pool of matter would fall on a single point.

    Over time, the amounts of Pb-206 and Pb-207 will change in some samples, as these isotopes are decay end-products of uranium decay (U-238 decays to Pb-206, and U-235 decays to Pb-207). This causes the data points to separate from each other. The higher the uranium-to-lead ratio of a rock, the more the Pb-206/Pb-204 and Pb-207/Pb-204 values will change with time.

    If the source of the solar system was also uniformly distributed with respect to uranium isotope ratios, then the data points will always fall on a single line. And from the slope of the line we can compute the amount of time which has passed since the pool of matter became separated into individual objects. See the Isochron Dating FAQ or Faure (1986, chapter 18) for technical detail.

    A young-Earther would object to all of the "assumptions" listed above. However, the test for these assumptions is the plot of the data itself. The actual underlying assumption is that, if those requirements have not been met, there is no reason for the data points to fall on a line.

    The resulting plot has data points for each of five meteorites that contain varying levels of uranium, a single data point for all meteorites that do not, and one (solid circle) data point for modern terrestrial sediments.

    The Age of the Earth

    The article continues on and gets a bit technical, but that should give you the gist of things. It also goes on to debunk many young earth arguments about the age of the planet.

    If you hold to a young earth, then you believe the earth to be only 6000 or so years old. Is that the case? If so, then how do you account for human cave paintings from tens of thousands of years ago?

  5. #5
    khonline
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    Re: Evolution?

    OK. Please answer the following questions:

    1. How can you tell the age of the rocks?
    2. How can you tell the age of the minerals, ect.
    3. Do you beleive in the Big Bang?
    4. What do you beleive to be the oldest nationality on the planet?
    5. Are you a scientist?
    6. Does the moon move further away from the earth very year?

    Now, my theory:

    I beleive God created the earth ABOUT 6,000 years ago. Unfortunately, the earth is NOT EVEN 6,000. What do you beleive to be the oldest nationality on the earth? I beleive it to be the Hebrews. If you look at there calendar, it states the year, 6976-6977.

    The rest is will be posted when you answer the questions.

  6. #6
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    Re: Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by khonline View Post
    1. How can you tell the age of the rocks?
    2. How can you tell the age of the minerals, ect.
    Most folks understand that dating "minerals" varies little from dating rocks. My spidey-sense is tingling in anticipation of some apologist website giving misinformation of carbon dating. As the article I linked to noted, rocks can be dated by a variety of methods including radiometric dating of other radioactive substances beyond carbon.

    Basically, we can measure how long it takes for radioactive substances to break down.

    3. Do you beleive in the Big Bang?
    "Believe in" is a four letter word.

    I acknowledge the big bang as the best hyopthesis to explain the origin of the universe. It fits the evidence we've collected so far. The god hypothesis has absolutely no merit.

    4. What do you beleive to be the oldest nationality on the planet?
    Has absolutely nothing to do with a discussion of the age of the planet. Nations are inventions of human beings. Recent inventions.

    5. Are you a scientist?
    Only an amateur.

    6. Does the moon move further away from the earth very year?
    Nope:

    Dr. Lisle has made an elementary error in the above excerpt. While he is correct for his (approximate) distance of 250 m after 6,000 year calculation, he seems to have dropped a ‘0’ for the time for the Earth and Moon to touch.

    Base Data:

    Earth Moon distance = 400,000 km, Actually 384,000 km
    Radius of Earth = 6400 km
    Radius of Moon = 1700 km
    So the Earth and Moon would be touching after the Moon has moved 384,000 – (6400 + 1700) km = 375,900 km
    That’s 375,900,000,000 mm
    Change = 1.5 in/year (38mm/year)


    375,900,000,000/38 = 9,892,000,000 years or approximately 10 billion years for the Earth and Moon to be touching.

    After 1.5 billion years the Moon would have been 57,000 km closer but still 318,900 km apart. This doesn’t seem to be quite such a ‘big problem’

    TalkOrigins Archive - Feedback for July 2006

    Now, my theory:

    I beleive God created the earth ABOUT 6,000 years ago. Unfortunately, the earth is NOT EVEN 6,000. What do you beleive to be the oldest nationality on the earth? I beleive it to be the Hebrews. If you look at there calendar, it states the year, 6976-6977.

    The rest is will be posted when you answer the questions.
    The link I gave from talkorigins.org in my earlier post completely invalidates this hypothesis. Again: nation is an invention of humanity (a very modern one) and plays no part in an argument about the age of the planet.

    EDIT: Please feel free to reply. Assuming you do, I will give my next post tomorrow morning.
    Last edited by Zhavric; March 13th, 2007 at 04:27 AM.

  7. #7
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    Re: Evolution?

    Guess I win.

  8. #8
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    Re: Evolution?

    Not to butt-in, but he has no outstanding evidecne for any of his jargon anyways.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

  9. #9
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    Re: Evolution?

    I'm just peeved Zhav keeps snagging up these easy kills. I get excited when I see an opening post like that, then he has to swoop in...
    What is it like to be Libertarian and an Atheist? Imagine having the freedom to believe whatever you want, without the responsibility of it ever becoming accepted in the majority.

    It's a truly magical feeling. Equal parts happiness and depression.

  10. #10
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    Re: Evolution?

    Wait, why didn't we discuss his early point of Dinosaurs still living with man? I would love to hear the answer behind that one. Unless he means birds, then I'm going to be pissed.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  11. #11
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    Re: Evolution?

    No, no Squatch. That would be admitting evolution actually exists.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

  12. #12
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    Re: Evolution?

    Dang you are absolutely right. GP
    Zhav your spidey sense was absolutely right, surprised it didn't come up. Carbon dating is kinda shady when it comes to archaeological finds. Rocks and earth dating however it is extremely accurate. Certainly not several billion years off anyway.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  13. #13
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    Re: Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch
    Wait, why didn't we discuss his early point of Dinosaurs still living with man? I would love to hear the answer behind that one. Unless he means birds, then I'm going to be pissed.
    LoL. Didn't you know, the dinosaurs live underground, just the Martians do on Mars.


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch
    Carbon dating is kinda shady when it comes to archaeological finds. Rocks and earth dating however it is extremely accurate. Certainly not several billion years off anyway.
    Its pretty rare to get a Macro fossil which you can use to date sedimentary rocks, as most fossils are casts/moulds without any of the original remains left. Its common practice to get dates from Micro Fossils. But really fossils are left alone and rocks are dated other ways. Sedimentary rocks are nasty because they can be laid down eroded and relaid over a number of times so the fossils could be a lot older than the rock they're in.
    Last edited by Splatfly; May 5th, 2007 at 06:22 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    "A Quote is for quoting" by Me

  14. #14
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    Re: Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Splatfly View Post
    LoL. Didn't you know, the dinosaurs live underground, just the Martians do on Mars.
    Thats just a myth, obviously all of our secret underground military bases would have seen them ;-)d
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  15. #15
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    Re: Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Thats just a myth, obviously all of our secret underground military bases would have seen them ;-)d
    Don't forget that Elvis and Tupac live there, too.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

  16. #16
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    Re: Evolution?

    Well we use them for USO shows actually, they have a routine you would be amazed by!
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  17. #17
    domination16
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    Re: Evolution?

    evolution cannot exist due to the fact that we have never found the "missing link"
    darwin searched and searched for the "missing link" on the galapagos and to his dismay never found ay fossils for an animal that linked together birds of the galapagos or any other animal for that matter
    furthermore, once darwin discovered this, he denounced his own theory, stating that he could not discover the missing link
    people refused to accept his statement
    we as the human race refuse to believe that evolution cannot exist because that would prove the existance of a higher being
    for where else can species originate from
    rocks.....lol
    and we as people do not want to believe in a higher being
    becasue thus we are held accountable for all our immoral actions


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    evolution cannot exist due to the fact that we have never found the "missing link"
    darwin searched and searched for the "missing link" on the galapagos and to his dismay never found ay fossils for an animal that linked together birds of the galapagos or any other animal for that matter
    furthermore, once darwin discovered this, he denounced his own theory, stating that he could not discover the missing link
    people refused to accept his statement
    we as the human race refuse to believe that evolution cannot exist because that would prove the existance of a higher being
    for where else can species originate from
    rocks.....lol
    and we as people do not want to believe in a higher being
    becasue thus we are held accountable for all our immoral actions[/QUOTE]
    Last edited by domination16; May 8th, 2007 at 07:47 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  18. #18
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    Re: Evolution?

    However, (and I'm not fully supporting evolution here, just pointing out your flaws in the argument). One he was only there for a couple of weeks, and two there will always be a missing link. Its very similar to Zeno's paradox, you can infinitely divide an object up. In this case you can always claim a missing link unless every member was fossilized and you found every single one.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  19. #19
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    Re: Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by domination16 View Post
    evolution cannot exist due to the fact that we have never found the "missing link"
    And God cannot exist because we have never found definitive proof of him.


    darwin searched and searched for the "missing link" on the galapagos and to his dismay never found ay fossils for an animal that linked together birds of the galapagos or any other animal for that matter
    furthermore, once darwin discovered this, he denounced his own theory, stating that he could not discover the missing link
    Darwin was one person, working with a half a lifetime to find hundreds of fossils and connect them all together. You can't possible expect one person to find everything just like that.

    people refused to accept his statement
    we as the human race refuse to believe that evolution cannot exist because that would prove the existance of a higher being
    for where else can species originate from
    rocks.....lol
    So are you an old earth or young earth creationist?


    and we as people do not want to believe in a higher being
    becasue thus we are held accountable for all our immoral actions
    Huh? Tell that to the 84% of the worlds population that does believe in a higher being.
    Catch22

    I drink your milkshake! I drink it up!

  20. #20
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    Re: Evolution?

    Quote Originally Posted by domination16 View Post
    evolution cannot exist due to the fact that we have never found the "missing link"
    We have never found life on another planet, either. So, by your "logic" life on other planets cannot exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by domination16 View Post
    darwin searched and searched for the "missing link" on the galapagos and to his dismay never found ay fossils for an animal that linked together birds of the galapagos or any other animal for that matter
    furthermore, once darwin discovered this, he denounced his own theory, stating that he could not discover the missing link
    I'll let the Answers in Genesis website answer that one.

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/crea...win_recant.asp

    Not even creationists believe that lie anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by domination16 View Post
    people refused to accept his statement
    Because he never made it.
    Ezekiel 4:12 (King James Version)
    And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight.

 

 
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