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  1. #441
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    Re: The Uniqueness of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    The name of the forum was "Evilempire" ....
    It was 'Backpage' long before that but the name is unimportant. That we have met before is the important point.

    ...and you showed the same unwillingness of accept the evidence for the existence of God.
    Well that's because you never supplied any Theo - and you didn't supply any because none exists. If you have anything new rather than the usual rubbish you used to post that you used to get from scientifically illiterate web-sites like 'Answers in Genesis' and LyingforJesus.com, I'd be more than happy to consider it.

    Your quotation is from a site called noanswersingingenesis.org.
    That's right. That's why I posted it - to show that even scientifically illiterate liars for Jesus like AiG wash their hands of your poster-boy Tasmin Walker.

    Perhaps you should look at this site:

    https://legacy-cdn-assets.answersing...ics-vs-aig.pdf
    No thanks mate. At 65 years old I probably don't have a lot of time left and I'd rather not waste a few hours of what is left by reading the scientifically illiterate ramblings of a handful of morons who claim that the Earth is only 6000 years old.

    What standard do you use to determine what is pseudoscience and what is real science?
    Very simple really. Real science is supported by verifiable evidence, data and facts, empirical evidence and testable hypotheses.

    Pseudo-science avoids the usual checks and balances found in real science such as peer review and publication in an respected academic journal which would carefully examine claims in regard to known physical laws. Pseudo-science uses 'big, scientific sounding words or dress their poster-boys in white lab coats because they know that their scientifically illiterate followers think that if someone uses complicate words and wears a white lab-coat, then he just has to be an expert in what he speaking about. Pseudo-science also loves to use 'experts' with dubious credentials to intercede for them - people like Ken Ham!!
    Jesus is unbelievable!

  2. #442
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    Re: The Uniqueness of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by pladecalvo View Post
    ...and you showed the same unwillingness of accept the evidence for the existence of God.
    Well that's because you never supplied any Theo
    There was no need for me to supply evidence. The fact that we live in a universe that is too complex to have come about by chance is evidence that there is a Creator. If you reject that evidence nothing anyone can say to you will persuade you.

    Very simple really. Real science is supported by verifiable evidence, data and facts, empirical evidence and testable hypotheses.
    The belief that the earth is billions of years old is and that all life developed gradually over a long period of time isn't real science because it is based on hypotheses about what happened in the past and can't be tested.

    Pseudo-science avoids the usual checks and balances found in real science such as peer review and publication in an respected academic journal which would carefully examine claims in regard to known physical laws.
    The requirements of peer review and publication in a "respected" academic journal serve as a form of censorship to preserve the status quo regarding scientific beliefs and making any genuinely new discoveries difficult. Many of the things we believe today were considered pseudoscience when they were first discovered.
    The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
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  3. #443
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    Re: The Uniqueness of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by theophilus View Post
    There was no need for me to supply evidence.
    Ah I see. So you can just make claims without supporting them with evidence huh? That must be convenient!!

    The fact that we live in a universe that is too complex to have come about by chance is evidence that there is a Creator.
    That we live in a universe that is to complex for YOU to understand is not evidence for your god.

    If you reject that evidence nothing anyone can say to you will persuade you.
    Yes, I do reject it. It is for you to provide the verifiable evidence that the universe is too complex to have come about by chance. Can you do that now - you've never managed it before.

    The belief that the earth is billions of years old is and that all life developed gradually over a long period of time isn't real science because it is based on hypotheses about what happened in the past and can't be tested.
    That's just you scientific ignorance talking now old chap; not that that is a bad thing because it demonstrates wonderfully just how scientifically ignorant you 'young Earthers' are. I urge you continue with your nonsense. You do more for the cause of atheism that a whole planet full of atheists.


    The requirements of peer review and publication in a "respected" academic journal serve as a form of censorship to preserve the status quo regarding scientific beliefs and making any genuinely new discoveries difficult.
    Not at all. It prevents people like you making outlandish and ridiculous statement and claiming that they true without supplying any verifiable evidence to support your claim.

    Many of the things we believe today were considered pseudoscience when they were first discovered.
    Some were no doubt but they were proved or disproved by having to undergo peer review, examination and publication in academia.
    Jesus is unbelievable!

  4. #444
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    Re: The Uniqueness of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by pladecalvo View Post
    Yes, I do reject it. It is for you to provide the verifiable evidence that the universe is too complex to have come about by chance. Can you do that now - you've never managed it before.
    God has already supplied verifiable evidence. All I can do is call your attention to it.

    Many of the things we believe today were considered pseudoscience when they were first discovered.
    Some were no doubt but they were proved or disproved by having to undergo peer review, examination and publication in academia.
    They were accepted because people looked at the evidence rather than believing what the "experts" said about them.
    The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
    Leonard Ravenhill

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  5. #445
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    Re: The Uniqueness of the Bible

    I think there is confusion because there is equivocation in the OP. It claims the Bible was written over 1000 years. This is not so. None of the material was written for the Bible. It was all written independently and thrown together as an anthology. Not one of the participants was intending to create the Bible. It was not intended to be a continuous work, an ordered work, or a cumulative effort. Without this intent, it cannot be considered a single work, but rather several independent works. The fact that certain writings were included and others were not, based upon the arbitrary views of Constantine's crew, means it is neither comprehensive nor complete. I am not saying this is a negative, I am simply stating that the statement that the bible was written over a 1000 year period is misleading. It is rather a collection of independent writings from over a 1000 year period, which is something quite different. As for the Bible being unique, Lenny Bruce was unique but I am not going to use his words as a life plan. I do not see any relevance to uniqueness. I think the author is trying to express an emotional argument disguised as a logical one.
    Last edited by Erroneous; June 25th, 2015 at 06:52 AM. Reason: misspelling

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  7. #446
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    Re: The Uniqueness of the Bible

    Few would dispute the uniqueness of the bible but you are presenting us with a Christian standpoint. The late Farell Till presents a very different view although he was at one time a believer. When John Wycliff gave us the English version. dissent was born and still continues.The Bible was trapped in latin for a thousand years and used as a weapon of power and control. I claim the Bible as well as any man I'm an agnostic dissenter. The great danger with the Bible. and other holy books occurs when they are hijacked by those who insist they are right. Tyndale was strangled and burnt for his part in freeing the Bible; lets get the chains off mankind and liberate free thought.

  8. #447
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    Re: The Uniqueness of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by kaptonok View Post
    The great danger with the Bible. and other holy books occurs when they are hijacked by those who insist they are right.
    Anything can be hijacked; anything can be perverted; temptation to do so is alive and well on the planet. However, I would disagree, that this is the greater danger with the Bible and other holy books. I think the bigger danger is when those (the majority) who live and practice their faith, don’t defend it when those bordering on insanity come along and hijack it.

    Such is the case with freedom. “The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.” The price of religious liberty in America came with a high price. But the founders of America didn’t base that price upon whose is right or wrong. Religious freedom, at least in this country, is based upon -- you are protected and free to believe and worship your faith (whatever that faith may be).

    Tyndale was strangled and burnt for his part in freeing the Bible; lets get the chains off mankind and liberate free thought.
    If people have chains on them, it’s probably because they want them on at some level.

    The Christ mind is quite liberating.
    Last edited by eye4magic; June 28th, 2015 at 02:19 PM.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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  9. #448
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    Re: The Uniqueness of the Bible

    Yes you are right any viewpoint can be used to suppress if it is allowed to get a firm hold on power.
    Religion is, more often than not , a fixed point of view and that makes it very dangerous. Politics is also a dogma but it evolves so is less dangerous. The hardest thing for humans is to live in peace with those who have different views from our own.
    I had two teenaged sons who fought like demons and several times threw me to the floor when I intervened. Now they run a buisness together.

  10. #449
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    Re: The Uniqueness of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by kaptonok View Post
    Religion is, more often than not , a fixed point of view and that makes it very dangerous.
    I think what's usually fixed is a human mind that chooses to be fixed. Holy books don’t generally encourage a stagnant mind. They usually teach and encourage principles that transcend the old wine. Old wine can indeed be fixed and I would agree, it can also be dangerous.

    The hardest thing for humans is to live in peace with those who have different views from our own.
    Such a viewpoint is usually an effect (consequence) to a cause of not coming to terms with love, which is central to most world scriptures-- “love your neighbor as yourself.” It sounds simple, but for some people it is difficult until they work through it.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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  11. #450
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    Re: The Uniqueness of the Bible

    Holy books propound a particular viewpoint and when taken seriously they seek to silence any dissent. They are not looked apon as advice- books or science- books but are given special status hence the word holy and its brother blasphemey.
    Add to that they take away man's freedom of thought. As a non-believer I can read the Bible as a collection of books; I can disagree with it or praise its wisdom but above all I'm not bound to prove its consistency.
    I hear you say are you consistent then? A fair critisism and I can only plead who is?
    Science should perhaps be the most consistent pursuit of mankind but it often proves to be shifting sand.
    Now love is a deep question and unfathomable for my poor mind but it is undoubtedly our greatest gift.

  12. #451
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    Re: The Uniqueness of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by kaptonok View Post
    Holy books propound a particular viewpoint and when taken seriously they seek to silence any dissent.
    How does a holy book silence human conscious dissent? It’s inanimate and has no conscious ability.

    They are not looked apon as advice- books or science
    Holy books are not books that address material science matters in much detail, nor does it appear that this is their purpose. They are books that deal with the spiritual aspects of life.

    For spiritual matters they are given special status.
    They are generally given special status with regards to their focus – spiritual matters, just as a biology text book is given special status with matters of biology.

    Add to that they take away man's freedom of thought.
    An inanimate agency (holy books) can’t take anything away from anyone. Holy books (words) generally deal with helping man commune with God and personal transformation. For those who experience such a phenomena, it is usually quite liberating in thought, mind, and soul.

    Science should perhaps be the most consistent pursuit of mankind but it often proves to be shifting sand.
    Science deals with the physical aspect of life. Since the physical world is temporal and changing, our understanding does shift with new discovery of a constantly changing world. The hard sciences don't study or deal with the spiritual aspects of life. If we consider that the divine world is permanent, unlike the temporal world we live in, it’s sands are not temporal but may indeed evolve for all we know. What can and does seem to shift is man's awareness and understanding of it.

    Now love is a deep question and unfathomable for my poor mind but it is undoubtedly our greatest gift.
    Yes it is.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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  13. #452
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    Re: The Uniqueness of the Bible

    Eyeformagic I must cross you off my debating list your too smart for me. I can't help feeling I've let you off lightly but I don't phrase my ideas too well.
    You see the whole idea of holy ( not too sure what that means) books worries me. In 2008 the law of blastphamy was abolished in the United Kingdom as being out dated. Many were very pleased and I was among them. Nonetheless I would not deride or abuse what another with a different viewpoint considered to be holy as long as it was not used to restrain my freedom.
    I hope my position is a bit clearer you see it is this use of holyness to restrain others that bother me.

  14. #453
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    Re: The Uniqueness of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by kaptonok View Post
    Eyeformagic I must cross you off my debating list your too smart for me.
    Nah… sorry Kaptonok, but this sounds like an excuse.

    You see the whole idea of holy ( not too sure what that means) books worries me.
    If something worries us, then we should have a somewhat clear idea of what it is. What exactly worries you?
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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  15. #454
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    Re: The Uniqueness of the Bible

    The idea of saying this is the greatest work of art, or the worlds greatest building and all the endless superlatives we all hear from time to time is no problem, but special status such as the infalibility of the Pope or a particular set of writings that sticks in my throat. No more questions can be asked; you must accept this because I said so and it is beyond argument.
    That is what worries me. This is the reason: it silences all opposition and results in dictatorship.
    Now benevolent dictatorship should be ok but as you know power corrupts.
    Ideally we should have no yardsticks to measure the limits of thought.

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    Re: The Uniqueness of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by kaptonok View Post
    No more questions can be asked; you must accept this because I said so and it is beyond argument.
    I don't think anyone is actually arguing that. Even if we grant the superlatives, no one here is claiming that it must be accepted beyond argument, right?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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    Re: The Uniqueness of the Bible

    I believe the drive of scripture is to assert its own correctness hence it is labelled holy , untouchable, beyond argument.
    Those who believe this and there are millions of them , bow the knee and in extreme cases kill the opposing infidels.
    We cannot live by the book for books like human brains are limited. We can consult the expert or the sage but we have to live our lives and get along in the mixed throng around us. I've been tossed around considerably but compared to many sailed in calm waters.

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    Re: The Uniqueness of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by kaptonok View Post
    The idea of saying this is the greatest work of art,
    The Bible isn’t art. In the field of spiritual writings (literature), yes, I would say the Bible is up there as significant and one of the greatest pieces of spiritual literature, along with other holy books.
    However, in the field of art, I would say the Mona Lisa along with Michelangelo’s, David and da Vinci’s “The Last Supper” are some of the greatest works, to name just a few.

    No more questions can be asked; you must accept this because I said so and it is beyond argument.
    Who claims you can’t ask more questions?

    That is what worries me.
    Are you saying that what worries you is your assumption that you can’t ask more questions?

    This is the reason: it silences all opposition and results in dictatorship.
    Are you aware that freedom of religion has been alive and well in America for over two hundred years and was actually adopted by other countries that now also are governed by some form of democracy?

    Now benevolent dictatorship should be ok but as you know power corrupts.
    Yes and the poor we will always have with us also. But the poor don't generally define civilization as a whole nor does corruption -- they are but slivers of the possible. Power doesn’t have to corrupt and not everyone chooses to be poor. That’s where checks and balances comes into play -- a brilliant concept by some of the American founders and wise English philosophers.

    Ideally we should have no yardsticks to measure the limits of thought.
    Freedom of conscience is protected in America. Do you live in a country run by a dictatorship?
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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  19. #458
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    Re: The Uniqueness of the Bible

    My first reply was lost due to poor connection but I'm rather glad of it. Christian rule is not democratic we had here with two bloody Queens one Catholic the other Protestant. Western democracies are secular developed from the better principles of. Christianity. Cromwell was not a democrat he was a God- fearing tyrant who decimated the poor Irish.
    American history is just as bloody if shorter; it was a slave country and the early treatment of the native indians was appauling.
    The western nations need to look on thier history , not with pride, but with thankfulness sanity survived.
    In America today there are those who wouldshould they ever get the raines strip poeple of their hard earned freedom.
    Fortunately there are Catholics who use birthcontrol and Christians who have abortions.
    Mormons who although in the church secretly do not believe its dogma. Humanity must shake off ths shackles of religious restraint.

  20. #459
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    Re: The Uniqueness of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by kaptonok View Post
    In America today there are those who would should they ever get the raines strip poeple of their hard earned freedom.
    Most societies seem to have their fringes. Mainstream Christians in America are generally respectful for U.S. Constitution, our secular branches of government and the Rule of Law. The U.S. Constitution tolerates the fringes unless they become violent and commit a crime. Is that what worries you– the fringes of your society?

    American history is just as bloody
    Freedom seems to have a price and so does freedom of religion.

    Humanity must shake off ths shackles of religious restraint.
    Religion in itself can’t restrain anything – it’s an inanimate agency.
    "The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” --"The Mental Universe” | Nature
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  21. #460
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    Re: The Uniqueness of the Bible

    I think the reason we differ is background. I have had an uncertain and bumpy life- ride which has made me wary of what appears to be stability.
    Just think how quickly Isis arose in the so called age of reason. Just look at the Arab nations at this moment.
    In the twinkling of an eye sanity can be lost , I feel it even in my old bones.
    Freedom has not been engineered by painstaking scientific advance , it has risen and likd a swimmer holds its head precariously above water.
    No place or nation is safe for there are forces, not all human , at work to throw us back to the middle ages.
    We are neither secure or advanced : read Orwells 1984 its gruesome.
    I have drifted as usual from the purpose of this thread a good example of how the mind can be drawn away from its first intentions.

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