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  1. #41
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    Re: Prove God Exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turtleflipper View Post
    Well, given the status of superfluidity as changing magentic charges based on temperature, I'd say their exists a solid possibility something happened to alter it.
    Where or not it's God I have no idea. Could well be. However, I believe it's the less likely otpion.
    But remember, when all other explanations are shown false, what remains, no matter how absurd, must be true.
    And please for my benefit, show me how it is more likely.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  2. #42
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    Re: Prove God Exists.

    but photons don't have a mass, therein lying a really weird problem for how they become electrons, they DO, but we just don't really know why
    -=]Eliotitus[=-
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  3. #43
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    Re: Prove God Exists.

    Wait, how/when do photons become electrons?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  4. #44
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    Re: Prove God Exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by wannaextreme View Post
    Than give me these arguments/ PROOFS like you claim to have.
    The following are merely some of the philosophical proofs provided by Aquinas (taken from BELIEVE).

    1. The "unmoved mover" argument. We know that there is motion in the world; whatever is in motion is moved by another thing; this other thing also must be moved by something; to avoid an infinite regression, we must posit a "first mover," which is God.
    2. The "nothing is caused by itself" argument. For example, a table is brought into being by a carpenter, who is caused by his parents. Again, we cannot go on to infinity, so there must be a first cause, which is God.
    3. The cosmological argument. All physical things, even mountains, boulders, and rivers, come into being and go out of existence, no matter how long they last. Therefore, since time is infinite, there must be some time at which none of these things existed. But if there were nothing at that point in time, how could there be anything at all now, since nothing cannot cause anything? Thus, there must always have been at least one necessary thing that is eternal, which is God.
    4. Objects in the world have differing degrees of qualities such as goodness. But speaking of more or less goodness makes sense only by comparison with what is the maximum goodness, which is God.
    5. The teleological argument (argument from design). Things in the world move toward goals, just as the arrow does not move toward its goal except by the archer's directing it. Thus, there must be an intelligent designer who directs all things to their goals, and this is God.
    As far as the Christian God, there is also the validity of scripture (while atheists reject it, their arguments against it are rather weak, unsubstantiated and obviously, noncompelling). There is also Biblical Prophecy most of which is quite clear and concise leaving no room for interpretation. Nearly all atheist's I've discussed prophecy with are unaware of Biblical Prophecy in that they see only a couple of which are rather vague. It is true that some are...it is false that most are. Most are incredibly detailed (coming down to specific dates, names and places) and validated by history.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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  5. #45
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    Re: Prove God Exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Wait, how/when do photons become electrons?
    When in an excited state and they have loads of energy they transform in to an electron and its anti-particle (I'm just trying to think of its name)
    -=]Eliotitus[=-
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  6. #46
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    Re: Prove God Exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by eliotitus View Post
    but photons don't have a mass, therein lying a really weird problem for how they become electrons, they DO, but we just don't really know why
    They have ENERGY and invariable mass.

    And remember! Energy = mass!


    But I have no real idea, I'm just guessing! This is the first I've heard of this

  7. #47
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    Re: Prove God Exists.

    Wait are you talking about the photo-voltaic effect? When a piece of metal is struck with photons, they excite the atoms to release electrons. Only the big bang is known to have created anti-particles. The particle you are looking for is the positron, which is very very rare. Energy does not equal mass, E=MC2 refers to the amount of energy contained in mass, and the amount you can get out of it by transforming it into energy.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  8. #48
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    Re: Prove God Exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by starcreator View Post
    So prove it. Remember, no shred of evidence to the contrary =/= true.
    Really? Then you are a theist as your statement pertains to the ATHEIST'S position.

    And BTW, atheists don't require this to be the case. They simply don't reject the possibility that it is the case. And based on the fact that you've provided no evidence that this is the case, I think that's a pretty solid conclusion.
    To be honest, this is a debate topic that I detest because it always feels like it's a discussion taking place in the 3rd grade where someone merely says "prove it" no matter what you say, DESPITE what is being said is common sense.

    I have absolutely NO interest going down this path. I simply reject magic. There is no reason to hold the position that things magically come into existence from nothing, especially considering the fact that there is absolutely no evidence for it.

    What you are suggesting is identical to:

    Apok: leprechauns at the end of rainbows with pots of gold, do not exist.
    star: They could. Prove they don't.
    Apok: Give me a break, it's common sense.
    star: No, it's possible. I don't discount the possibility that little green men in fancy hats are waiting at the end of rainbows with their pots of gold.
    Apok: OK, I do. I don't believe in magic, nor do I believe in leprechauns.
    star: But you can't prove they do not exist. I believe it is POSSIBLE for leprechaunsto exist at the ends of rainbows.
    Apok: OK, sounds silly, but magic, leprechauns, unicorns...whatever floats your boat. It's irrational...but it's your faith, run with it.

    Well, if it's really that simple, you should no trouble proving that it is an absolute law, should you?
    I gave you an experiment to try. Get back to us when the magic happens.

    Also, given the fact that it is the default position that magic doesn't exist, the onus is upon YOU to show that it does. I merely reject magic and leprechauns. The reason why I do so is because 1) I see no logic in it, 2) I see no evidence for it. Obviously, you do. But we don't know why you do.

    IMO, atheists believe in magic and leprechauns because they cannot explain their non-existence. It's too dangerous to suggest something such as "They don't exist". Yet, this is quite hypocritical and intellectually bankrupt isn't it, for it is what they do when they speak of God. It's circular. God doesn't exist, but magic and leprechauns do.

    Sorry, not buying it.

    How do we know the universe had a beginning and isn't eternal, though?
    ...I provided a link for you in a previous post.

    Perhaps the current form of the universe emanated from the Big Bang, but before the Big Bang, why could that point of mass and energy from which the universe emerged not have existed forever?
    It's irrational. It's great faith that the atheist has, but there is absolutely no reason to believe it is the case.

    Thus, the atheist's position is one of great irrationality as well as great faith (moreso than any theist's position).

    Nice try, Apok. How about instead, we each support the claims that we've actually made?
    I merely reject your claim of magic, that's all.
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  9. #49
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    Re: Prove God Exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    [LIST=1][*]The "unmoved mover" argument. We know that there is motion in the world; whatever is in motion is moved by another thing; this other thing also must be moved by something; to avoid an infinite regression, we must posit a "first mover," which is God.
    What makes this thing God, why not a big bang, or why not an eternal universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    [*]The "nothing is caused by itself" argument. For example, a table is brought into being by a carpenter, who is caused by his parents. Again, we cannot go on to infinity, so there must be a first cause, which is God.
    So God can be caused by himself and hence is in contradiction to the rule which proves him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    [*] The cosmological argument. All physical things, even mountains, boulders, and rivers, come into being and go out of existence, no matter how long they last. Therefore, since time is infinite, there must be some time at which none of these things existed. But if there were nothing at that point in time, how could there be anything at all now, since nothing cannot cause anything? Thus, there must always have been at least one necessary thing that is eternal, which is God.
    why can't it go back forever? Or have something other than God to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Objects in the world have differing degrees of qualities such as goodness. But speaking of more or less goodness makes sense only by comparison with what is the maximum goodness, which is God.
    So God is also the Smelliest is he, or any other thing used in a comparative context, so he's also the most evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    The teleological argument (argument from design). Things in the world move toward goals, just as the arrow does not move toward its goal except by the archer's directing it. Thus, there must be an intelligent designer who directs all things to their goals, and this is God.
    Not all things, ever heard of an appendix, its not neccesary in people but its there, i doesnt do anything people need bu its there, so this is in essence wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    As far as the Christian God, there is also the validity of scripture (while atheists reject it, their arguments against it are rather weak, unsubstantiated and obviously, noncompelling). There is also Biblical Prophecy most of which is quite clear and concise leaving no room for interpretation. Nearly all atheist's I've discussed prophecy with are unaware of Biblical Prophecy in that they see only a couple of which are rather vague. It is true that some are...it is false that most are. Most are incredibly detailed (coming down to specific dates, names and places) and validated by history.
    And some details of the prophecys success are plain made up. The birth of Jesus for example, there is no evidence Jesus was borne in Bethlehem, except that is where the Messiah was meant to be borne so the bible had it put in.
    -=]Eliotitus[=-
    "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future"- Oscar Wilde

  10. #50
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    Re: Prove God Exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turtleflipper View Post
    What scientific data indicates in any way how the Universe began,
    Link provided in earlier post.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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  11. #51
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    Re: Prove God Exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    And please for my benefit, show me how it is more likely.
    God is an omnipotent ever-loving entity who has infinite energy and is external, to the point of side-stepping casuality.

    vs.

    random quantum weirdness



    All things being equal, it requires far fewer variables to line up succesfully for the 2nd option to happen then the 1st. Therefore, the probably of 2 is greater then 2

  12. #52
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    Re: Prove God Exists.

    1 vs 4. I simply can't keep up. I concede.

    I'll try to start a new thread on Biblical Prophecy soon.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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  13. #53
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    Re: Prove God Exists.

    "And some details of the prophecys success are plain made up. The birth of Jesus for example, there is no evidence Jesus was borne in Bethlehem, except that is where the Messiah was meant to be borne so the bible had it put in." Actually elio there are roman documents that refer to the family (though not jesus by name, since he wasn't born yet) on census docs of the right time period.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  14. #54
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    Re: Prove God Exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Wait are you talking about the photo-voltaic effect? When a piece of metal is struck with photons, they excite the atoms to release electrons. Only the big bang is known to have created anti-particles. The particle you are looking for is the positron, which is very very rare. Energy does not equal mass, E=MC2 refers to the amount of energy contained in mass, and the amount you can get out of it by transforming it into energy.
    I'm not exactly an expert on this but i read it as a passing refrence in Schrodingers kittens and the search for reality. I dont have the text on me its in shool but ill post it when i get back tommorow.
    -=]Eliotitus[=-
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  15. #55
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    Re: Prove God Exists.

    But both turtle are relying on simple assumption, neither of which is more valid than the other. Elio, looking forward to that info tomorrow.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  16. #56
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    Re: Prove God Exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    "And some details of the prophecys success are plain made up. The birth of Jesus for example, there is no evidence Jesus was borne in Bethlehem, except that is where the Messiah was meant to be borne so the bible had it put in." Actually elio there are roman documents that refer to the family (though not jesus by name, since he wasn't born yet) on census docs of the right time period.
    Where?
    -=]Eliotitus[=-
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    Re: Prove God Exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    But both turtle are relying on simple assumption,
    That is all we ever have.
    Tomorrow, look at some milk. Is it their? There's a small, small chance it isn't. But you can't absolutely dismiss it. You can taste it, smell it, but these potentially could be illusions.

    At the end of the day, we only have our assumptions and the probability of their truth to deteremine reality with.

    Quote Originally Posted by squs
    neither of which is more valid than the other. .

    Well I hope you enjoy your non-milk!

  18. #58
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    Re: Prove God Exists.

    Which was my point turtle, we all have our assumptions and I have yet to see any convincing evidence that one is more valid than the rest, so it comes down to faith, which was why I thought this op was kinda shady originally. Both Josephus and Tacitus mention them in their writings, however I'm not sure where the actual documents exist, last time I heard it was the University of Chicago.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  19. #59
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    Re: Prove God Exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Which was my point turtle, we all have our assumptions and I have yet to see any convincing evidence that one is more valid than the rest, .
    We don't have evidence, we have probabilities. That is IT!

    and God's probability is lower then non-god

  20. #60
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    Re: Prove God Exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turtleflipper View Post
    We don't have evidence, we have probabilities. That is IT!

    and God's probability is lower then non-god
    Exactly.

 

 
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