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  1. #1
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    Scottish Independence

    Would it be good or bad for the countries of the UK?

    Those of you in the rest of the world are welcome to join in, it would be interesting to hear the opinions of an external observer.


    A couple of my own opinions:
    Advantages.
    -Scotland would be free from any chance of being under conservative rule.
    -English MPs will get more power over what happens in England.
    Disadvantages.
    -England & Wales would be dropped into conservative control, which is very bad.
    -Is Scotland big enough to take on the big wide world on its own, if not = bad.
    "A Quote is for quoting" by Me

  2. #2
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    well to be honest if two thirds of Irland was big enough i think Scotland is as well, even if there population is lower than London's. And as to the conservative control thing, that is just an opinion(not saying i support the conservatives mind you, Thatcher well and truly buggered up while in office), if the majority doesn't want conservative, conservative won't get power.
    -=]Eliotitus[=-
    "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future"- Oscar Wilde

  3. #3
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Doesn't matter much to the U.S. diplomatically. England is our main ally out of the UK. Would be a bad economic decision for Scotland, though, probably.

  4. #4
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    I think scotland would do well on their own. Although, whats the point in the UNITED Kingdom if the kingdoms are going their seperate ways?
    "I appear to be in a very deep, dark hole. That seems a familiar concept, what does it remind me of? Aaahh. I remember... Life, don't talk to me about life." - Marvin the Paranoid Android.

    "I'm sorry. I've got a terrible memory for species." - Zaphod Beeblebrox

    "Great guy, Roostar, great hitcher. He really knows where his towel is." - Ford Prefect

  5. #5
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Scotland and England (& Wales) are linked in so many ways that even if it opted for 'independence', there would likely be a very strong 'Federation' in it's place. If it had not been for foolish political decision making in the past century, Ireland would most likely have similar 'Federal' links. As it is there is/was an open border (no visas or passports) between the UK and Ireland. This has been the case for many years, even during the World Wars.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  6. #6
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Hey if the Scots get to go free, can't we fennians get the rest of ours back too? ;-)
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  7. #7
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Squatch - As I have posted in the other UK thread, Ireland can get the 'Six Counties' back, just as soon as a majority there wants it. The IRA has finally decided to give up violence, because that message has finally sunk in. The majority in Eire do not want a violent and warring North as part of their country in any case, which at present is what could well happen. All violence has done is entrench suspicions and misconceptions in both sectarian communities. It will take a generation or two of peace and political fairness and goodwill for this historic 'negativity' to die down and for the issue of national identity to be peacefully debated again.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  8. #8
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Fully concur as I mentioned in the other thread, just throwing it in there for color. As always I fully support the plebiscite, and am deeply impressed with members of both sides recently.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  9. #9
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Splatfly View Post
    Would it be good or bad for the countries of the UK?

    Those of you in the rest of the world are welcome to join in, it would be interesting to hear the opinions of an external observer.


    A couple of my own opinions:
    Advantages.
    -Scotland would be free from any chance of being under conservative rule.
    -English MPs will get more power over what happens in England.
    Disadvantages.
    -England & Wales would be dropped into conservative control, which is very bad.
    -Is Scotland big enough to take on the big wide world on its own, if not = bad.

    I don't think it matters, after all most of the Scotsmen know we are better than a common brit. So/

    P.S.
    I am American-Scottish Clann Gunn!

  10. #10
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    It is good to see that Wallace is not quite dead.
    "If you can not battle words with words and only words, your message is inferior." -Me, just a few minutes ago

  11. #11
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Part of my ancestory being Border Reiver: they were bands of brigands and mercinaries that worked both sides of the Scottish/English border. My lot grew fat from it and ended up with two castles and a load of land. The family name is listed among the following:

    From both sources (books and Tullie House Museum) you will be introduced to the world of Border Surnames.

    If your surname is among the following your ancestors were almost certainly nefarious Border raiders:

    Armstrong, Nixon, Elliot, Scott, Johnston, Maxwell, Bell, Hall, Charlton, Milburn, Dodd, Robson, Graham, Noble, Irving, Irvine, Routledge, Forster, Rutherford, Croser, Musgrave, Dacre, Carleton, Ridley, Salkeld, Clifford, Kerr, Turnbull.

    If your surname is among the following your ancestors were among the victims or followers of the bandits:

    Little, Tweddle, Tailor, Taylor, Hetherington, Barnfather, Skelton, Tordiff, Tremble, Hodgson, Henderson, Story, Davison.
    The Border Wars. The history of Cumbria and the Lake District
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  12. #12
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    my family was dated back as far as Louis XIV royal physician in France, a while later we moved to England, noone interesting for a while then a privateer who went from a cabin boy to owning two ships and being rich, then we filter all that off down to my generation.
    -=]Eliotitus[=-
    "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future"- Oscar Wilde

  13. #13
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Interesting i thoght that scotland was its own nation/ state thingy with in the UK......

    by the whay is the UK like just england?? or is it sorta like a mini UN???

    that has been a question i have had for a while now.....
    .... "Disicta Membra" the scattered remains.
    ...."Vir sapit qui pauca loquitur" It is a wise man who speaks little.
    "illegitimi non carborundum" Don't let the bastards grind you down.

  14. #14
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Just a quick note on terminology for those not familiar.

    The two largest of the British Isles* are Great Britain and the island of Ireland.

    On the island of Great Britain, there are three countries: England, Wales, and Scotland.

    England conquered Wales militarily finally in 1282, and in 1536 Wales and England joined in union under the Wales Acts with one common parliament and the same laws.

    In 1603, King James VI of Scotland also became King James I of England, and England and Scotland remained seperate nations in Personal Union under the monarch. In 1707, The Acts of Union created the United Kingdom of Great Britain, one nation with a shared common Parliament.

    Similarly, the Kingdom of Ireland had been in Personal Union with England since Henry VIII was crowned king in 1541. James I/VI also took this crown in 1603, and in 1801 Ireland was subsumed into The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

    In 1922, the Republic of Ireland (all the land on the island of Ireland save the protestant northeast) was declared, and the name was changed to The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (constituent nations: England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland), and we still have the seperate state of Ireland today.

    Probably clear as mud now.

    *Should be noted that some (mostly the Irish) object to the term "British Isles" because the Britons never really lived on Ireland proper. It's still the common term, though.
    Skepticism need not equal cynicism.

  15. #15
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Actually in 1922 the Irish Free State was created, it became a republic in 1949 if I remember right. I only mention it because it was a source of the Irish civil war. Leave it to us to fight a bloody civil war over a choice of wars (to paraphrase Michael Collins).
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  16. #16
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    INteresting.......
    .... "Disicta Membra" the scattered remains.
    ...."Vir sapit qui pauca loquitur" It is a wise man who speaks little.
    "illegitimi non carborundum" Don't let the bastards grind you down.

  17. #17
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    My personal opinion is that Scotland should not become independant.

    It is obvious that people from Scotland are proud of thier heratage and don't want to be ruled over by the British. Who can blame them, we (the British) took control of the country and now they have to do what we say. This is an extreme summary of the situation but it is basically what happened.

    Now the Scottish parliament can make laws but they only apply to Scotland, the British Parliament can make laws and they apply to the whole of the UK. But this is fair, as Scottish MP's can vote in the House of Commons, whilst British MP's cannot vote in Scottish parliament.

    There are many pros and cons to becoming an independant state and this is a debate that will occour constantly and will only stop if Scotland becomes and independant nation. In my opinon the cons of becoming independant far out weigh the pros. I will pick out one of the points I think will stop Scotland becomming an independant nation.

    Scotland can afford to survive on its own as a nation, this is due to the energy reserves (oil) that Scotland has in the north sea. However, the proffit from the oil goes to England and is then used as the House of Commons sees fit. England does put money into Scotland and if this stopped and Scotland were left to finance themselves, they could survive but not with the same level of growth they enjoy at the moment.

    Scotland would become independant but would not be able to afford to grow.
    "Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure"

    "As we let our own light shine we unconciously give other people permission to do the same. As we our liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others."

  18. #18
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Doublethink - Scotland gets more govt. money per capita than England or Wales. Most of the gas reserves are off the Yorkshire and Lincolnshire coasts, plus most of the Brit. sector oil reserves are closer to the Orkney and Shetland Islands, and their population in general are wary of 'independent' Scottish politics.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  19. #19
    Neathallblack
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    As to your point that independence would mean that Scottish people would not be under a government that the majority had elected- you could say this about the North East of England or even a Southern Labour Constituency such as Portsmouth or somewhere. Scotland elect their MPs and their MPs have the ability to vote the way they want- so they have no less say in Parliament- if they haven't voted for the majority government, other areas are in the same position.

    I am Welsh, but I prefer to see myself as British and am a firm believer in the United Kingdom. While others would disagree, I would not say there's a demand for independence in either Wales or Scotland, I would further argue that the growth of the nationalist parties have been helped, at least in part by public demand for a centre left alternative to Labour, and not by the overwhelming desire for independence.

    As for devolution, in Wales, it wasn't particularly in high demand- with just 0.6% difference between the two options. Still, as it's here, it should be made to work. The current system is quite frankly a mess. It is not fair and it undermines any non English Prime Minister. It's completely illogical that Scottish MPs can vote on English legislation but English and indeed Scottish MPs do not have the ability to vote for the same legislation in Scotland.

    This half way position will cause further alienation between Scotland and England and unless the West Lothian Question is solved, I fear independence is inevitable.

    On a lighter note- did you know that William Wallace in fact had Welsh parentage?

  20. #20
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    I am an American born of Scottish ancestry!

    I would hope that Scotland was eventually given Her freedom.

    However I can also say that many of us did become expatriates as a result of England's forced reign.

    Not a big fan of European politics, but I love my Heritage and would love to see Scotland, as well as see her people made completely free again!

    However if it never happened, than so be it.

    Scot's rule the world anyhow!


    "At least 11 Presidents of the USA were of Scots ancestry including McKinley, Jackson, Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Polk, Lyndon B. Johnson and Ulysses Grant, who incidentally visited Scotland after he ceased to be President. There is a street in Scotland that is named after him."
    "Harvard Medical School was founded by three doctors - of the three, only Dr Benjamin Waterhouse, a graduate of the medical school at Edinburgh University, was a qualified doctor."
    "Scottish medical knowledge and training was the best in Europe during the mid-17th Century and many of the recipients travelled to the New World, bringing their advanced education with them."
    "Scots have played their part in the political history of the United States. More than one hundred governors of pre-Revolutionary colonies and post Revolutionary States were of Scottish birth or descent.

    35 US Supreme Court Justices have been Scots.

    Of 73 Great Americans in the Hall of Fame, 25 were of Scottish blood.

    Nearly half of the Secretaries of the US Treasury and one third of the Secretaries of State have been of Scots origin.

    Of the fifty-six signatories of the Declaration of Independence, nine were directly or indirectly descended from Scots.

    9 out of 13 Governors of the newly created United States were Scots or of Scottish descent.

    Of fifty judges of the Supreme Court from 1759-1882 at least fifteen were of Scottish ancestry.

    James Pollock (1810-90), responsible for putting "In God We Trust" on the US coinage, was of Scottish descent."



    Famous American Scots


    I could continue? Would you like me too?


    We Scotsmen know we are the best, which is why we allow England to act like she is!


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    "There are famous Scots scientists -- think of Alexander Fleming, discoverer of penicillin, or Joseph Lister, pioneer in germ warfare. There are great Scots inventors -- Alexander Graham Bell, James Watt, and Sir James Dewar, inventor of the vacumn flask (needed a way to keep the Scotch handy?). And world-reknowned Scots philosophers (David Hume, Adam Smith)."

    Biographies of Famous Scots


    "However, the art of writing is where Scotland really shines - there are so many wonderful and timeless authors born and bred in Scotland that we've created a separate page just for them - please visit Famous Scots Authors to find out more about Sir Walter Scott, Robert Louis Stevenson, Robert Burns, J. M. Barrie, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Muriel Sparks and many more."

    Biographies of Famous Scots


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    Gosh, is that us?

    Sure England had some great people, as do many other countries. However our well known independent spirit has kept us at the forefront of every major field for hundreds of years.

    We (Scotsmen) are lauded explorers, inventors, and risk takers, the Scottish Brigade in WWII was one of the fiercest fighting units to see action.

    I am proud, of my Scottish heritage as well as my American heritage!


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    Back on track, financially at this point it would be foolhardy for Scotland to sue for independence.

    This much I agree with.


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    BTW the following link has many good articles regarding Scottish thought on secession!


    Siol nan Gaidheal - Main Index
    Last edited by wanxtrmBANNED; July 4th, 2007 at 11:15 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

 

 
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